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Hate the Act, Denigrate the Actor

Right-wing

by Brian Leubitz

I have always found “hate the sin, love the sinner” to be one of the more demeaning slurs against the LGBT community. While the anti-gay folks like to consider this very thoughtful, it is belittling of our lives and how we choose to live them. It invalidates our entire lives as the sum total of our “sin.”

As luck (or a conference organizer with a sense of humor) would have it, GOProud’s booth at the Conservative Political Action Conference is located two booths down from the National Organization for Marriage — opposite-sex marriage, that is. When CNN started shooting a story on the gay Republican group’s experience at CPAC on Thursday, the NOM delegation sent someone over to shake hands, suggest a beer summit, and smile for the cameras.

After the CNN segment ran Friday, however, NOM, under pressure, felt compelled to blast out a statement that fell well short of an invitation to guzzle some suds. “We welcome everyone’s right to participate in the democratic process, but we have a message for GOProud on marriage: If you try to elect pro-gay-marriage Republicans, we will Dede Scozzafava them. The majority of Americans, and the vast majority of Republicans, support marriage as the union of husband and wife, and NOM is here to make sure these voters and their voices are heard loud and clear,” the statement reads.

Say it to our faces, GOProud Executive Director Jimmy LaSalvia said. We’re standing right next to you.

Maggie Gallagher  and NOM like to pretend that they are very thoughtful and considerate. At debates, she likes to say that if they could get in a room, they would be able to solve this issue. But when you consider that Gallagher and her ilk thinks that our whole community is nothing but a bunch of sinners. And as soon as she can talk about you behind your back, she will.

The heart of the matter is that the rights of our community should not be judged based upon what Maggie thinks or believes, but only based upon the law and full equality under said law.

Tags: ,

224 Comments

  • 1. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:14 am

    You are so right, Brian. And that is why we must continue to fight, and to remain united in this cause. We must not allow these people to keep us under the gun, must not allow them o continue to oppress us.

  • 2. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:17 am

    "is belittling of our lives and how we choose to live them.", hmm…Brian, I would have selected different words, than. "choose to live them." I don't know about anybody else, but for me, there was never a choice…this is who I was born to be. <3 David

  • 3. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:18 am

    With that said, I agree with the rest of your article completely. <3 David

  • 4. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:28 am

    @Brian Leubitz
    So, you think that “hate the sin, love the sinner” is bad?

    I'm not saying we should be happy about it, but at least it is some kind of a compromise. You, guys, are lucky to have this compromise. I live in Russia, and Russian Orthodox Church is not going to go with this kind of compromise, not in the nearest future. They are very persistent that homosexuality is the greatest sin there is and nothing should be done for gays, NOTHING. They say “hate the sin, AND the sinner.”

    The other point: we may not like it, but this is what is written in their Bibles… Do we have a moral right to tell them what they should believe? Do we have or should we have the authority to tell them what to believe? This is faith, freedom of religion. And when we dismiss just like that this kind of compromise, we only prove their point that we won't be tolerant to their religious bigotry, and that we will go after them to eradicate this misunderstanding!

    I think we should chill out and leave 'em alone with their Bibles. At some point they will have to change their believes (in a couple of centuries). We shouldn't be doing it for them now. As long as they “hate the sin, NOT the sinner.”

    But fighting religious bias voting on our rights is what we must stand against. The state has no religion, and the Bible has no place in White House, in Capitol, in Pentagon, and at the ballot box!

  • 5. Alan E.  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:28 am

    I thought the same thing. It's a choice that we want to live openly, not a choice to actually be gay. The fact that we can hide it does not change the fact that gaydom isn't a sin. As mentioned many times before, many ex-gays merely suppress it. We simply choose not to suppress something that a)doesn't harm anyone (prove to me that knowing someone that is gay is harmful, then i might change my mind on this; all h8ers present is stuff that people do and take away anything related to straight people) b)mutually agreed upon by the parties involved, and c) is shown to be as much a part of nature than just simply humans.

  • 6. fiona64  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:31 am

    Kirill, "love the sinner, hate the sin" is not in the Bible … no matter how many times people try to pretend otherwise. It is a quote by Mohandas K. Ghandi.

    Just so you know.

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 7. Alan E.  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:32 am

    "hate the sin, not the sinner" is merely a cover-up for the real feelings underneath. I bet that many people who say that would be put off from just touching someone who is gay, even accidentally.

  • 8. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:32 am

    Yes, thank you Alan, I agree with your interpretation, though from my reading of the article, I would still have selected a different phrasology. <3 David

  • 9. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:42 am

    I have friends, who live in Russia, K!r!keXXI, so I understand completely what you write about, so I agree with what you write about Russia. Those, who choose to interpret the Bible in such narrow theologies have little more than a miniscule understanding of the universe and all that it encompasses. I also agree with fiona64, since no where in the Bible does it contain these words. With that said, the Bible also condemns many other sins, that most of the world simply choose to ignore because, they feel it no longer applies to them. In the Bible texts, there are many things written, which contradict themselves in other places in the Bible. <3 David

  • 10. RAY in MA  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Hate the sin, love the sinner. Jeeezuz! What are these people thinking?!?!

    Next time, try responding:

    "But I really hate being called a sinner".

    or

    "But that would make me hate you if you called me a sinner."

    Simple, and to the point.

  • 11. Frijondi  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:48 am

    As much as I admire what Gandhi accomplished through his activism, I have reservations about him as a thinker. I would look to him for guidance in building a non-violent movement, but not deep philosophical questions.

  • 12. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:51 am

    I have this to say….We didn't choose to be gay….we chose WHEN to come out…for some people it is at 6yo….for some it is 13 like my uncle and Lawrence King….for some it is at 18 like me…for some its after they destroy their heterosexuals lives by getting married to the opposite gender and having kids while having an same gender affair on the side…..for some they never do….for some they come out on their death beds…..but I really don't know when I made the choice to be discriminated against… when did I choose for a Hatero to call me the "F"-word or threaten to kill me…..If they really looked into what we go though outside of all the freedom, why would anybody choose to be Gay? and people who are intersex didn't choose to be intersex and biologist knows that….And I'm not transgendered but i can imagine how it feels to know that your body doesn't reflect who you are inside….I mean the Hateros talk about "Natural"…..well we were not born with piercings, tattoos, plastic surgery, clothes….Why are those aspects of life not considered a sin after all if that is what god wanted us to look like wouldn't we have been born that way?….and then there is flying? We don't have wings…I mean I don't…so why do we fly? or use cars and bikes?….You see those things are choices…I chose to get a tattoo when I was 18 of a cross on my left shoulder…I'm non-denominational though,,,I plan to add to it…..I chose what time of the year I redo my highlights and cut my hair by the only stylist who has been cutting my hair since I was 10yo…..Being gay is who I am but it does not define me…I am not a mind reader so unless you tell me I will never know when you chose to be straight…and since you can really say anything you want and be thinking something else I still will never truly know your truth…..All I can say is I speak for me and you cannot not…and when I say I am Gay take it or leave it but just because you don't accept it does't make it true…and lastly being able to say "I am a man and I do take you to be my husband and I promise to love honor and obey until death do us part"….is an expression of my "Freedom of Speech"…and when a law is passed that says I can't say that…it violates my rights as a tax paying 7th generation American…my freedom of speech…and my freedom of religion….But like I said you don't have to accept it but that doesn't make it true….so anyway how about that gorgeous Evan Lysacek and his huge….Gold medal?….<3…Ronnie

  • 13. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:53 am

    @Fiona
    Oh, I didn't mean to say it is in the Bible. I understand that it is merely a compromise, a new interpretation to live in the reality of the brand new world. But Bible says they must love everyone (even though other parts of it say gays must be stoned to death). It contradicts itself, so they've chosen to interpret it this way.

    @Alan E.
    Yes, it is a cover-up. But religions are untouchable, apparently. This is the reality we have to live with. I'm sure in the future these things will change, as more people will learn about homosexuality not being something bad, and as science proves that it is not a choice, not an mutable thing, and something that was purposefully invented by nature (this last one is arguable, of course).

    @David
    No arguments, except that we really shouldn't suppress religions — this is when they will start yelling that gays are out to get them.

  • 14. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:53 am

    By the way, I just visited your website – great you have this an outlet! I wanted to make one comment to you…never believe you are less than anyone else in the world, simply because you are gay. You are intelligent, fluent in at least 2 languages, and one he** of a patriot! Even in America there are those, who fear speaking out. So for you to speak-out from Russia is very admirable! <3 David

  • 15. Warner  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:55 am

    Just remeber… People who judge other people's sins tend to always do so to hide their own, far worse sins.

    Sin is a human concept.

    Maggie Gallagher is a inhuman monster.

    that explains why she is incapable of understanding human emotions like love, compassion, and humanity.

  • 16. Alan E.  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:58 am

    I am not a mind reader so unless you tell me I will never know when you chose to be straight…and since you can really say anything you want and be thinking something else I still will never truly know your truth…..All I can say is I speak for me and you cannot not…and when I say I am Gay take it or leave it but just because you don’t accept it does’t make it true

    This reminded me of a David Boies' redirect when he asked simply, "If two women want to get married, are they lesbians? If two men want to get married, are they gay?"

  • 17. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:58 am

    Thank you Ronnie, that is what I was getting at with my comment, but you have a way with words, that leaves me speechless, at times! <3 David

  • 18. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Some one in another forum said: Bad biology makes bad theology. Much of the prohibition against male-male sex (don't even talk about females, they're just property), was based on prescientific understanding. At a time when the 'seed/sperm' was considered life which merely needed to be 'planted' into the womb, any loss of sperm was a loss of life. There are so many things in the Bible that may have made sense to the people of that time, but are completely irrelevant now. Any living things must grow or die. That is the challenge facing most religious institutions today. If we are required to choose between dogma/doctrine and knowledge/reason, which will we most likely choose?

  • 19. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:03 am

    LOL…you're welcome David K…and thank you….<3…Ronnie

  • 20. dieter  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:03 am

    We did not choose to be gay.
    we were CHOSEN.

  • 21. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:04 am

    "GOOD GOD MAN"……hehehe….<3…Ronnie

  • 22. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:04 am

    @David

    [N]ever believe you are less than anyone else in the world, simply because you are gay

    Yeah, I used to think that way… I guess, we all go through these stages of real acceptance of ourselves as gays.

    As for patriotism — that's not exactly true. I'm not speaking out here, in Russia, anymore… I've tried this once, didn't work out so well, almost got fired after that. And the amount of shit I had to take from everyone… Not to mention death threats from Orthodox priest who said God will forgive him for killing a homo… I've decided to move to Canada. If I stay in Russia, I'll get married in my 70s, if still alive… But when and if I move to Canada, I'll continue my full support for the equality fight in Russia — with internet and this mobile world you don't have to live in the country to do something for the movement.

    Anyway, thank you for your kind words, David!

  • 23. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:07 am

    K!r!lleXXI, I agree, we should not supress religions, since it is a part of the US beliefs, as written in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The point I was making is the Bible says a lot of things, that are no longer considered valid. By the way, I have been studying Russian, but it is a very difficult language for me. Your English is excellent, I wante to add. <3 David

  • 24. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:10 am

    Thank you, I should have been more specific in my words, since there was a time in Russia, when merely writing such words could get you thrown in the Gulag or worse. Again, I commend you on your efforts. <3 David

  • 25. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:11 am

    @Richard
    It's a very good point: male homosexuality was forbidden because of loss of semen! I presume, in that case there should be something very serious about masturbation — it's pretty much the same thing in terms of loss of semen.
    Reason must always prevail!

  • 26. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:23 am

    If you read the text carefully, you will see that even nocturnal emission makes a man unclean, an abomination, which requires the proper ritual actions to absolve. There are some very good expositions of the Holiness/Purity Code from Leviticus that discuss the rationale behind the Laws. Even if we presume that ?G?D? gave the Laws, it was still written in human language and language is not always self-evident.

  • 27. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:25 am

    @David
    Well, one can only hope that religious leaders would be open to discuss and to listen to these absolutely valid arguments. I'm just saying that we should be careful with our speech, if someone will choose to remain loyal to those views of homosexuality — they have this right. But they don't have a right to promote those parts of teaching that openly call for death for gay people — this would be a crime, a serious one (now that you have Matthew Shepard Act).
    Funny that so many people from US here know or learn Russian… Felyx here speaks Russian pretty good. But it is a very complicated language, English was way easier for me. Anyway, I've been learning English for 14 years now, so it is not that impressive for me to get to some comprehensive point.

  • 28. Kevin S.  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:26 am

    IIRC, masturbation was proscribed. In fact, the common theme to the sexual laws in the Hebrew Bible appears to be maximizing pregnancies. That made a ton of sense for a people who were chronically underpopulated. Now? Not so much.

  • 29. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:32 am

    I love this comment of yours Richard,

    "If we are required to choose between dogma/doctrine and knowledge/reason, which will we most likely choose?"

    I think religion is quickly taking its place as a beautiful philosophical tool. Much of the philosophy of love will bear the scrutiny of science. The rest will take its place as history or mythology. Any attempt to use it for social policy or legal doctrine will be crushed under humankinds rapid increase in knowledge and understanding!!!

    As for loss of semen…..I am all for it baby!!! <3Felyx

  • 30. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:34 am

    @Kevin: Right on point. They may not have had a full understanding of sexual biology, but they did realize you shouldn't try to plant crops during a flood, ie, there is also the prohibition of intercourse during a woman's monthly flow.

  • 31. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:37 am

    That's it…… i am going to buy a run down apartment complex…..make it all perty and any perspective tenants that do not support LGBTQQIA Rights will be force majeured……..<3…Ronnie

  • 32. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:38 am

    ewww……..can we not?……..<3…Ronnie

  • 33. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:39 am

    Ronnie – Google Dede Scozza. She was a NY assembly member who ran as a Republican with too liberal an agenda to suit the party. There are a couple of really funny YouTube clips in the list.

  • 34. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:40 am

    OMG Ronnie…..you know I actually looked at that for about ten minutes until I realized what language you were speaking!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!!!! I kept thinking…not Japanese….not arabic or farsi….definitely not Russian Hebrew French Spanish, etc….then it hit me….it's phonetic.LOLOLOLOL!!!!!! I guess some of you will never understand why that is so damn funny to me….I had just never seen anything like it before!!! <3 Felyx

  • 35. Bill  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:41 am

    It is hard to take 'hate the sin, love the sinner' TOO seriously.

    Especially when it is directed at the most horribly treated monority group ever to exist on the planet.

    And EVEN MORE SO since it is coming from the mouths of the group that abuses, degrades, dehumanizes, rapes and murders that minority group.

    We love you, heterosexuals.

    But we fucking HATE your sins, too.

    And certainly if there IS a god and we DO meet him on that judgment day so many of you predict, CERTAINLY God will consider the heterosexual sins of abuse, degradation, dehumanization, rape and murder of his LGTB creations FAR more seriously than he will consider the genitalia of another's beloved.

  • 36. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:41 am

    No I know…I was joshing….<3…Ronnie

  • 37. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:43 am

    I hate the sin of bigotry. So there.

    And if I remember correctly, Christ died once for all sin; so…..hmm…..did some sins cause more pain than others while he was hanging there on that cross? Seems to me that all sins required the same payment. How can one sin be worse than another in that case?

    "hate the sin but love the sinner" is condescension at it's most arrogant. It reeks of elitism.

    And they STILL don't get it. Their religion is just that–their religion. It isn't law. It is fact only to them; not to the rest of society. And their religion cannot be the sole reason for legislation. Voting according to your beliefs is one thing; of course we all do that. But working to make your religion the law is quite another.

    Love,
    Linda

  • 38. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:43 am

    @Richard
    It always seemed strange to me that even the mere fact that we are born is already a sin, and we all are sins from birth, just because Eve wanted to eat that freaking apple.

    On the other topic…

    I was baptized Orthodox Christian, but my sly parents tricked me into it without my understanding: I thought I was taking a bath given to me by this strange-looking old man with a beard and in funny attire, when, in fact, he baptized me as a newborn…

    After I received death threats from an Orthodox priest about a year ago (he wanted me to stop spreading the word that homosexuality is not something bad, to stop arguing with people who were brainwashed by the Bible and the USSR), I decided to excommunicate myself from RusOrCh. I inquired if there is some ritual and what should I do (I believe my name is written somewhere in their logs), but they said there is no ritual and no paperwork. So, I decided to do it myself: when the snow melts and the tiny local river not far from my home opens up from the ice, I'm gonna go down there, throw my cross into that river and say something like "Hereby I excommunicate myself from the Russian Orthodox Church and leave Orthodox Christianity." In case these guys are right about God, I wanna set the record straight that I left Him in terms of these teachings — if He wants to do something about that after my death (punish me), it's not my place to stop him. But I do not agree with Orthodox folks, and I do not agree with their God as well.

  • 39. Bill  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:46 am

    These days, those folks think that a stem cell is a baby.

  • 40. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:48 am

    We Maggie?

    You, the rest of you, your puppy dog boytoy brian and who else?

    Last I checked people could vote for whatever they wanted….I think Pro-H8 led the way on that one!!!!

    Don't Maggie Gallagher* yourself on us lady!!!

    *To Maggie Gallagher-To throw one's weight around trying to harm people as though one actually had any…(political weight that is.)

  • 41. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:50 am

    lol….no speaksa the German….actually its short hand for auf wiedersehen….or so i've been told….<3…Ronnie

  • 42. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:51 am

    Dieter, you rock!

  • 43. Bill  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:52 am

    No one on planet earth TRULY believes that gay people CHOOSE to be gay.

    Those who use that argument simply feel that it excuses their vile treatment of us.

    But they really don't believe it.

    Because if the really believed that sexual orientation was CHOSEN, then each and every one of those folks who say it is a choice have really just outed themselves as bi-sexual.

    THink about it, if you have any sort of choice as to the gender you are attracted to, you bi, right?

    So all those, 'it's a choice' idiots are really bi-sexuals who are either in the closet or have simplt 'CHOSEN' to only act on their opposite sex attractions.

  • 44. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Кирилл, это всегда радость видеть вас здесь. Любовь, Феликс

  • 45. PDXAndrew  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Yeah, Im like 'what foes that even mean?'
    I looked up the name in wikipedia (so of course it's true) and it says: "…area Republicans chose Assemblyman William Barclay, in part because they thought Scozzafava would be seen as too socially liberal. Barclay lost to Democratic Assemblyman Darrel Aubertine, and some Republican operatives said that in hindsight they should have picked Scozzafava."

    so, are they saying they'll specifically choose a wise Republican competitor, so they can lose to the Democrats and regret it? Sounds like a GREAT game plan to me… What is it you call these people, Ronnie? Say it with me:

    FOOLS!!!!

    Love, Andrew

  • 46. Bill  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:58 am

    It's true.

    Being LGTB is a gift from God.

    I am certain of that.

    We are the closest to his son Jesus to ever walk this planet.

    That must really irk the 'Chrisitans.'

    That their treatment of their LGTB offspring is so similar to their treatment of Jesus Christ when he walked the earth.

    Sweet, sweet irony.

  • 47. Bill  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:00 am

    Problem is, it IS kinda law.

  • 48. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:01 am

    @Felyx : I'm a liberal Episcopalian. A fundamental concept in our approach is the "three-legged stool" of Scripture, tradition and reason. As with any stool with only three legs, when you try to cut any of them unequal, you end up with a wobbly stool. Many fault this perspective because in the end most of us choose to see Scripture and tradition through the lens of reason. But for those of us who reject the Fundamentalist dictum of Scripture as "literal, inerrant and infallible", it is God's Gift of Reason that makes both Scripture and tradition a vibrant, living reality for persons of faith. On your other point, I will simply note that a recent study published in an Australian medical journal concludes that men who ejaculate frequently either thru intercourse or self-stimulation have a significantly more healthy prostate.

  • 49. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Likewise, Felyx!

    If you'd like to say this in Russian some other place, I'll just allow myself to correct you a little: “С любовью, Феликс” :)

  • 50. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:03 am

    FOOLS!!!…they are FOOLS!!!!….you're a FOOL!….hehehe…whats that FOOL?….you're a FOOL really?….Oh hi FOOL!…..Queens trump Jacks and whats another name for Jack?…..That's right its FOOL…ah!…..you're a Fool….John Jacob Jingle Himer Smit…Smit is another name for FOOL!….you're a FOOL!!!!….what's that phrase?…."FOOLS rush in"?….I'm not FOOLing ya…you're a FOOL!!!…so stop FOOLing around…unless you are horizontal inflagrante…then by all means….FOOL around….FOOL!!!….<3…Ronnie

  • 51. PDXAndrew  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Heh… Good point… That is, if you could ever get them to admit they CHOSE to be str-hate.
    Dollars to donuts, I'll bet you every single haterosexual you ask will tell you they were always str-hate, never had to make a choice.
    To wit, you just play Ronnie's soundbite: FOOL!

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 52. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:11 am

    I think maybe we need a song and a video to go with this thread……<3…..Ronnie:

    xena bitter suite (Hate is the star/Hearts are hurting pt 2)Uploaded by eiko31. – See the latest featured music videos.

  • 53. Michelle Evans  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:27 am

    We definitely do not have any moral right to tell them how they want to live, just like they have no right to tell us how to live.

    The primary difference between the LGBT community and a lot of religious idiots is that we are just fine to let them do and believe whatever they want. It is only when they come stomping into our playground and start telling us how we have to behave and who we are allowed to love that brings up the problem. We don't have a long history of doing that, they do.

    It's almost funny when they talk about how LGBT people are out to recruit others to our world, and yet that is pretty much what they do every day. Look at the history of religion from the Crusades to the Missionaries. I don't recall ever hearing in history class about a war that was started by gays or lesbians, or about how we recruit by sending missionaries into foreign lands.

    Maybe what they are really afraid of is that we MIGHT chose to do the same type of garbage that they do because they can't conceive of the idea of anyone who wouldn't do that!

    So, they can believe what they want to believe, but they have no right to say what I can believe, and that is why we are standing up and saying "Enough!"

  • 54. waxr  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:34 am

    Did somebody say, "love the sinner"?

    Daily Bible Passage

    Hosea 13:16 (14:1)
    Samaria will be held guilty,
    because she rebelled against her God.
    They will fall by the sword,
    their infants will be dashed to the ground –
    their pregnant women will be ripped open.

  • 55. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:37 am

    Not to mention that America was not a christian nation before Europeans came here…The Native Americans were Pagan….Ireland was original polytheistic and ScotLand as well….Originally Rome and all of Italy believed in multiple Gods…..the Greeks….All of Africa was a pagan nation and society before Europeans brought them "God" and "Jesus" and in some cases there are still pagan tribes in Africa, Easter Island, the Amazon, South America…… Australia was a pagan society before Europeans went there…India, China, Japan, no talk of God and Jesus until white man…..so really who is the one going place to place recruiting people though out time like Locusts?….. It sure isn't us….<3…Ronnie

  • 56. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Correction they were pagan but polytheistic as well…anywho still works..<3…Ronnie

  • 57. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:40 am

    Like a c-section?……<3…Ronnie

  • 58. PDXAndrew  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Ooo! Sounds like fun :)
    Love,
    Andrew

  • 59. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Hehehe! I caught it as soon as I posted it. I work a 24/7 job so I was "rushin' " to post it so I could go. Anyway, "С любовью" Felyx

  • 60. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 20, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    There is also the fact that at the time, there were a lot of rituals belonging to the gentiles and their religions that called for the men to sleep with the male temple prostitutes and the women to sleep with the female temple prostitutes to ensure that they had fertile crops in the filds and plenty of children. The ban was more for racial and ritual purity than anything else. And when people try to bring Sodom and Gomorrah into the discussio, they are forgetting that the people of Sodom wanted to be inhospitable to Lot's guests and be "gate crashers" rather than await invitations, and this was a common occurrence for them. That and the fact that they did not look after their widows and orphans. While not often noted, there were loving, committed same geder relationships, and one of the best known cases n the Bible is David and Jonathan. Notice that when they killed Jonathan, David was nowhere around, because he was hiding from Saul. Jonathan was never harmed while David was around and David was never harmed while Jonathan was around. Alexander the Great had it right when he said an army of lovers could not be defeated. Think about it. When you are fighting beside someone you love, anyone who attacks your beloved will have to get through you first, and the same for your beloved–anyone who attacks you will have to gothrough him or her first. that means that each of you will fight to the death for the other. Well, this is what we must do–we must unite and become an army of lovers, brothers, and sisters. We must fight not only for ourselves but for one another. And we must be willing to stand united and fight to the death for full equality.

  • 61. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    Alexander the Great was Gay…or at least Bi……<3…Ronnie

  • 62. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    Kirill,

    If you come here you will be FORCED to convert to the PresbyQUEERian Faith. You will have to renounce stupidity and hatred. You will have to take an oath to revere beautiful gay men (or women if you are converting to Lesbitarians) regardless of how they might physically appear. Service are held on weekends at the local LGBT drag club where you will receive communion alcohol (over 21 only please) in the form of sacred CockTails and wine-coolers. Once you accept your new community there will be a mass baptism wherein we will dunk you in a foaming bubble party (created with a sacred bubble machine blower) with dozens of other nearly naked really hot guys (and girls as the case may be.) In doing so you will AVTOMATICHNY excommunicated from all gay hating religious GLUPIYE!!! If you refuse to join, you will be FORCED to live as you believe with nothing from us other than love and support. I know this will be difficult for you, but I am sure that you are strong and will see to reason….it is afterall, for the sake of your body and soul…and body.

    S Lubovyu,
    Felyx
    His Gullible (Goluboy) Bishop of Gaymerica

  • 63. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    @KirilleXXI: I've been following your comments at Prop 8 Trial Tracker. You have put forward a number of religious/theological issues that very much resonant with me. Since P8TT is really not the place to expand on that aspect of the dialogue, I'm wondering if you would be interested in engaging in a one-on-one dialogue addressing some of those aspects. My personal faith journey has been from a relatively conservative upbringing to a very liberal, academically moulded one. I have several sources which might be of interest to you. On the doctrine of sin, one of the best is a book by Matthew Fox, "Original Blessing". You come through as a very deep thinking young man. If I can contribute to your personal growth, I would be most honored.
    Richard W. Fitch
    twiga_riq@yahoo.com
    You can also 'friend' me on FaceBook

  • 64. Ed-M  |  February 20, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Speaking of the Olympics, I believe that Johnny Weir got gyped in his figure skating performance. He did a beautiful, brilliant skate, although simpler than some expected, he did it for a reason. And the time he hit the rut in the ice? Excellent recovery! The announcer wondered out loud if he would get credit for that. But no! He ended up in 6th place, behing three men who had mishaps on the ice. If you're openly gay, even if you don't say "Yes, I'm gay" when responding to the question in an interview due to athletic federation restrictions and the repercussions that would follow if you admit it, you will still be discriminated against in the athletic world! Amateur as well as professional. This has to end!

  • 65. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    RAY in MA, usually the way I get them to stop and pretend to think (Hey, it shuts them up!) is when I respond, "Since when is LOVE a sin?"

  • 66. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    Felyx, we cannot do Kirill's baptism until after he has his ritual purification bath in Stanley Home Products Naturals Luxury Milk Bath with real milk protein to pamper his skin and make it glow! And I will provide that!♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  • 67. Ed-M  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Yes, we are CHOSEN.

    We are the redeemer tribe!

    It is no accident that the Stonewall Revolution is set in the present nuclear age.

    Yet the hatero right-winged "Christians" want to get rid of us to prep the world for the second coming of Christ, their hearts' desire.

    Of course, if they get the power to get rid of us, they are liable to start World War 3!

    And what would Jesus have to say to them upon his return?

    I think it would go something like this:

    "And why didn't you let my LGBT brothers and sisters do what I set them out to do?"

  • 68. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    I guess what I'm trying to get at is this should not be a religious issue. This is a civil rights issue. I'm tired of being told that I had to have chosen to be gay, because God doesn't make gay people, only straight ones. And I see no point in arguing with people who believe that way. They begin with the belief that the Bible is God's inerrant Word, to be taken literally. Any discoveries or research or scientific argument that disagrees with that primary assumption is automatically wrong. End of story. And they certainly have a right to their beliefs; we all have a right to believe what we want to believe.

    The problem is this particular religious group has garnered so much political power that they now believe they have the right to legislate their faith. In fact, they feel that they cannot truly enjoy their right to religious freedom unless and until their religious beliefs become law for all Americans.

    They believe their religion is Superior, and they, as followers of this religion, are the true guardians of our Constitution. They know, better than anyone else, what our Founding Fathers truly intended–that America was to be a Christian nation. This 'Separation of Church and State' is not really what was intended, they say. Christians are really the only ones who rightfully have freedom of religion, since that is the true religion of America. They won't force you to become a Christian; but they will force to live as if you are one.

    It's fascism. It's no different than Nazi Germany.

  • 69. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    Interesting side note…the 9-11 commisioned report noted that the information needed to prevent 9-11 was actually IN THE POSSESSION of the intelligence organizations at the time. The problem? Not enough Arabic translators to keep up with the need. Why not? Gay witch-hunting at the MLI got rid of most of them five month prior.

    Gay haters let 9-11 occur!!! God's wrath on the Right-eous!!!

  • 70. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Linda, you are so right. the only difference between what the h8ers are trying to do and the Nazis is that they are not wearing any particular uniform, they are in civilian clothing. And I really have trouble with people who are trying to say taht what their religion teches is what the framers of the Constitution meant, especially since not only were there different religions represented, but if I remember correctly, there were also some atheists or secular humanists involved in this process. Bu if these folks have atim machine that can take them back to the time when our DOI and Constitution were being hammered out, I want to take a ride in it myself and see just what these folks meant when they wrote these documents.

  • 71. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    I gotta pick a bone with you but…..

    It is a FACT that Same Gendered Individuals have a Federal Mandated that allows them to marry here in AMERICA. In AMERICA gays can marry each other and receive all NATIONAL benefits. In AMERICA there are national laws that guarantee the right for any two consenting adults to marry.

    Please stop claiming that AMERICA does not recognize gay partnerships as valid married couples.

    Love,
    Felyx
    Who IS American…just not your linguistically arrogant version of what you keep saying America is.

  • 72. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Johnny Weir is an amazing skater…I think he should've gotten fourth at least because his routine was flawless but not at the same level as Evan, the russian guy, Evgeni Pluschenko(don't get me started with that little sore loser) and Daisuke Takahashi from Japan….alt together I thought it was a real good competition…..I still love Johnny though because he really doesn't give a flying F@$k what anybody thinks…he skates for himself and the people and does it beautifully…..<3…Ronnie

  • 73. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Felyx,

    ???

    Love,
    Linda

  • 74. dieter  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Hey..Leave my future Russian husband alone..LOL

  • 75. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    What I have said is accurate so figure it out.

    With love but still miffed, Felyx

  • 76. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    I'm not sure how I've managed to offend you; it certainly wasn't intentional.

    But if what you say is correct, then why did we just have this court case?

    My gf and I can't get married. And if we went to a State that does allow SSM, our marriage would still not be recognized federally. We would not have the federal protections of marriage. So I'm not sure where you're coming from.

    However, that being said, I am not interested in arguing with a member of my own community.
    I apologize for offending you, Felyx.

    Love,
    Linda

  • 77. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    'We' had the court case so that 'we' can get legally married like those 'other' Americans who think the US is not the only 'American' country on this continent.

    Not offended just feeling like you don't realize that there are other 'Americans' here besides just you USians.

    USA, USian, people of the US…that is all fine and dandy but American is a tad bit arrogant. That's all.

  • 78. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    I see! You're right. I apologize. It was arrogant of me to refer to the USA as America. Thanks for calling me on it!
    Love,
    Linda

  • 79. Skemono  |  February 20, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    Linda, I think Felyx is miffed that you're using the word "America" to refer to the USA when it can encompass the two continents, North and South America.

  • 80. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    If this sounds odd then I apologize in advance, please take my word for it.

    I do care for you. I wanted you to be aware that this is indeed an internationally viewed website. So far we have had Australians, Canadians, Russians, Mexicans and British to name but a few who openly stated as much. I would also wonder if Skemono is Japanese!

    Thank you for understanding me and putting up with my 'miff-fit'. I could have said something much more politely. Sorry. Please forgive me. Felyx :`(

    Skemono….is this short for Tsukemono? I am 'dying' to know!!!

  • 81. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    Felyx–please! Don't apologize for being offended. We in the USA do refer to ourselves and our country as America(n), for shorts. That's what I was doing. But….it was insensitive of me, and I'm glad you pointed that out.

    My concerns here are that the Fundamentalist Christians in the USA are trying to turn our country into a Christian Theocracy. And they are setting about trying to prove that that was the true intent of our Founding Fathers. And this really concerns me.
    I do think we are headed for a show down; possibly another Civil war, as they are causing a polarization in the USA that we haven't seen since the mid eighteen hundreds.
    LGBT's are being used as the common enemy to further their agenda. We are a prime target. We are easy to hate. We are immoral, vile, sick creatures in need of repentance and salvation ( in their eyes). The worst part is they have incredible political power and influence. I don't know if they are stoppable.
    Love,
    Linda

  • 82. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    Linda, I think that the radicals who are posing as "Christians" can be stopped, but only if every LGBTQQIA in the USA bands together and speaks out in unison, and repeatedly, to get the truth out to combat their lies. Otherwise, there will be another civil war. We need to band together and setup another series of Freedom Rides, like those in the 60's, but this time with buses, vans, RV's, and every other vehicle available to the LGBTQQIA community all leaving at one time to go to Washington. Only when we are all together on this will our hidden brothers and sisters feel safe in coming out of the prisons they are in while still in their very own homes. Yes, I call them prisons rather than closets, because that is exactly what they are. When you are not free to be yourself unless you are behind the closed doors of your home, and when you don't even feel safe being yorself a home, then it has become a prison. And that is one more sign and symptom of the oppression we are under here in the US. Let us all join together and schedule our Freedom Rides sothat as we move from the West Coast across this country, we can pick others up along the way. This way, they can see the Freedom Riders grow in number as we progress toward full equality, and once or true numbers are known, and once they see that we come in all shapes, sizes, ages , genders, and socioeconomic levels, and in all levels of education, and all professions, they will see that we are no different than they are in what we believe and what our goals are. We must show them what the real gay agenda is–to be free to marry the men and women we love, to haveour marriages recognized LEGALLY in the CIVIL sector, and that we also have the riht to pursue our religious beliefs, and that trying to codify their eligious beliefs into the law of the land is a violation of those rights a guaranteed by the Constitution. They have incredible power and influence, but we just band together and join our voices, we can match that power and influence.♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  • 83. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    I know of a way to stop them that is fast and easy…It's just not legal…but we all that they don't care about legality and they are trying to make legal for them to do what I'm implying….wink wink…I have made that same civil war notion on another DB……<3…Ronnie

  • 84. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    First I will say that I am not impervious to what goes on in the US, I actually live in NC at the present.

    Second I would point out that if you think you got it bad you ought to read Kirill's description of Russia!!!

    The third thing that I really want to point out is the most important. Fundamentalism seems strong and overwhelming right now but in reality it is dying! Religions around the world are losing numbers. The actual most widely spreading group is non-affiliated non-religious whether spiritual or atheist.

    That is why this case is so important… it isn't really just about gays getting married, it is about a philosophy that is about to get its ass handed to it. In general religions have been losing moral authority all over the place. There are very few issues for religion to hang its collective hat on (so to speak.) After this particular issue what is left to take a stance on? I will tell you….the most unwinnable arguement of them all…who is the RIGHT one! There will only be vilifying of those not of a denomination…but this is not something anyone can take to a civil court.

    So Linda, I would encourage you to look deeply into this. This is why there is such a bitter dispute over gays. After this all sorts of inter and trans gender rights will be won because religion can no longer dictate that man and woman were created by and subject to 'God'.

    I encourage you to hear the opposition in the light of its whimpering. Hear the whining and listen to the angry rantings and know that the unenlightened are fearful of the power and control that 'they' are losing.

    It is a matter of time. I only hope it is a matter of OUR time!

    With great optimism and deepest love,
    Felyx
    (Who still is a bit embarassed that he threw a snit fit to a very wonderful person!)

  • 85. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Felyx–I hope it is only a matter of time. And Richard, I agree that we need to stay unified, and present ourselves as such.

    And to both of you–I am so jealous that you live in NC!!! I'm out here in CA and my gf is in SC right now. She'll be moving out here in a few months, but this waiting business is hard! I don't know how our friends who are continents apart do it.
    Love,
    Linda

  • 86. Bob  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    I watched a video where Maggie says she has gay people who support her stand on the marriage issue, I can see this as a possibilty, because we are all over the spectrum, some of us may still be caught in that religious tangle of thinking love the sin hate the sinner is satisfactory (it certainly was for me for a while) but I moved past that. It forced me to go back to my family and my religion of birth and confront them. Anyway Maggie, this is a personal challenge, if there are gay people in that position, they need to declare themselves. You say you won't and they can't because they are afraid. Sorry that doesn' cut it, that stand simply confirms that your actions stem from fear. Fear based actions are sign of old religious dogmas.
    Truth causes us to go through fear , take an example as the group of gay people in Uganada who attended a town hall meeting wearing rainbow's they must have gone through fear to declare themsleves in the face of death threats.

    That's what's being asked of us here and know, declare ourselves, so Maggie please get your supporters to declare themselves for open dialogue on where we're at, or stop using them.

    I recommend two recent books, Spiritual Evolution, and The Religious Case Against Belief. for those of us who are using this as a format to grow spiritually, by confronting our families and the religions that influenced us as children, I am all for pushing the church to initiate new ceremonies for those of us who have gown beyond thier restrictive narrow, inerrant view of words and stories in the bible.

    This can only be done in a very deep personal meaningful way, with our own immediate families of origin, not easy, pretty frighting, and very lonely journey. We can't continue to just call them ignorant and move away, we have to return and be visible. But I also believe that rainbow people have been chosen for this purpose, spiritual enlightenment, hope , peace joy, love are the rewards awaiting all.
    Cheers Bob

  • 87. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    We does it one day at a time. Stay strong. Felyx

    (Of course you can always come out to visit. I have a space available.)

  • 88. Albert.M  |  February 20, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Fiona,

    I too looked up wording related to "love the sinner, hate the sin", and found it nowhere in the bible. Speaking for myself, the bible is the word of God, and I'm sure Paul meant to never hate the sinners of his day but urge them to repent of their sins.

  • 89. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Let's be realistic….with just a hint of Judge Walker being gay(doesn't matter)…it became national news….If and that's a big IF….there are any Gay people working for Haggie their names would be viral along with photos by now…after all we know how much Perez Hilton loves to blow up peoples spot….It's just another one of the Haterosexual tricks and lies….."I have gay friends"……proof?….I didn't think so……<3…Ronnie

  • 90. Albert.M  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    Richard,
    These methods will make your efforts more visible, but, if I want to support traditional marriage, why am I considered bigoted?

  • 91. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    oh and another thing about that is the Haterosexuals always bring out that strategy when they are losing ground…..where were these "Gay" people/employees/friends before the trial and during the trial?….it would be smart to have announce this info, in the same way it is be used(very vague and lacking fact), at the very beginning…but NOOO!!!!…its simply a last grasp at a unraveling rope…..<3…Ronnie

  • 92. dieter  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    And here is your sing-a-long for the day…try and get THIS one out of your head when it's over!!…LOL
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXPcBI4CJc8&fe

  • 93. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Felyx–that's sweet of you, thank you. But, no offense, when I visit I'm staying with my gf!!! :)

    Bob–I admit it is hardest for me to come out to my parents. Almost everyone else knows, but they don't. You're right that we have to stand our ground and face our loved ones. Easier said than done though, at least for me. I think, on a personal level, many of us are dealing with religion; but on a governmental level, we should not be having to answer to those issues. This is a civil rights issue, constitutionally. And if the USA is going to keep a secular government it cannot allow our civil rights to be debated in terms of religious doctrine.

    Love,
    Linda (and Leslie)

  • 94. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    @Albert – There is probably no one on this forum that would say you are a bigot for supporting traditional marriage, IF that means being able to marry the person you love. However, you ARE bigoted if you wish to deprive the civil rights attached to civil marriage from two consenting adults who wish to have a committed relationship based solely on their having the same sex label.

  • 95. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Maggie I have straight friends that support marriage between any two consenting adults regardless of gender……..(Hmm……no can't use this one it is actually so true it's passe'.)

    Uhm…ok….Maggie I have straight friends that believe what I have to say is meaningful and true without having to be paid….(Hmmm…..doesn't really have that powerful kick for which I am looking.)

    Ah…I know….Maggie, I have friends who don't think you are a moron…..(muffled snicker)…..(audible snicker)……(muted chuckle)…….BWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Tears, OMG! Tears….ROTFLM-GD-AO!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    Ohhh dear God! 'Chuckle' 'Tears' Oh for heavens sake!
    Sorry, even I couldn't pull that one off!!!!

    How do you do it Maggie? How do you keep a straight face? Especially as we all laugh so hard at you?!!!!!!

    Oh my….Why don't you just come over for a beer sometime. We'll laugh and have some good times, eh?

    (Felyx On A Miff-fit welcomes everyone’s right to participate in the process of making fools of themselves, but we have a message for Maggie on prevarication: If you try to elect pro-prevaricating Republicans, we will Maggie Gallagher them. The majority of Americans, even the ones in the US, and the vast majority of Republicans, support obfuscation as the union of religion and politics, and FOAM is here to make sure these goaders and their voices are heard proud and queer! )

  • 96. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Simple answer….whose "traditional" marriage….the Native Americans? Islam? Multiple wives still practiced in many middle eastern countries? Arranged marriage? the fact that you are supposed to be a virgin on your wedding day? whose "tradition" is right and whose is wrong….I have a "tradition" of putting my x-mas tree up the day after thanksgiving….should everybody in the U.S.A. be forced to follow my "tradition"? My cousin has a" tradition" of shutting her cell phone off on the weekends…should everybody be forced to follow that "tradition"…<3…Ronnie

  • 97. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    And that ultimately is why Judge Walker will rule for the plaintiffs; the defense is based almost entirely on the religious views of a limited number. They do NOT reflect the stated position of The Episcopal Church, for one.

  • 98. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Well I would HOPE that if the two of you visit that you will stay with each other….I hope you don't think that 'I' am going to know what to do with her….I don't even know how to even find any of that stuff down there!!!

    PuhLease!!!! Felyx ;`P

  • 99. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    You ok there Felyx?….I wanted to say something along the same lines as you did but its almost 1:30am here in Joisey and I'm not quite up to making that kind of statement right now…but wait until 2morro….I will join you mocking of Haggie…..<3…..Ronnie

  • 100. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    I'm good. Stand up comedy loses some ground in text form…I just couldn't resist this one. Felyx

  • 101. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    lol….true…..<3…Ronnie

  • 102. PDXAndrew  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    FOAM?

    Freedom Of Annoying Maggie?

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 103. Linda  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!! Now THAT made me laugh!

    Reminds me of a story of my own. I was booking a romantic week-end at a B&B this past summer (I was able to visit Leslie for a month), and I emailed the owner to let him know we were a lesbian couple, just in case he would have an issue with it. Here's his response.

    "Linda, the only thing that may be uncomfortable about you being lesbians is that I will not have the typical straight man's fantasy during your stay. During the past 22 years with my partner I have never strayed to the other side."

    What a great response!!!

    Love,
    Linda

  • 104. PDXAndrew  |  February 20, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Y'know, I think the Haterosexuals may actually have a connection with God. See, they have the Gift of Prophesy.

    They've been going on and on about this Big Gay Agenda. We've been laughing about how we never got our copy of this manifesto.

    But, in response to their hate and lies and fear, I see the LGBTQQIA (can we add more letters?) community becoming more and more cohesive… As Richard W-J said above '…only if every LGBTQQIA in the USA bands together and speaks out in unison, and repeatedly, to get the truth out to combat their lies…' Y'know, the whole 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' and all that.

    And it's all because of the haterosexuals. So, I'd like to say "Thank You, Maggot Gallagher and Andy rePugno and all… you've given me something to fight for!"

    The BIg Gay Agenda: Destroying Hate

    Love, Andrew

  • 105. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    If some priest had the B’s to say that to me I would have said the same thing back….Oh wait I already did (he didn’t say it in those words but yeah)….He wound up getting a restraining order against me…but that was overturned because I had it all on tape….hehehe…FOOL!!!!……<3…Ronnie

  • 106. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Yeah, thanx, dieter, I had never thought about it that way, I nearly spewed my coffee from my mouth, when I read that one. <3 David

  • 107. David Kimble  |  February 20, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Well, I have been up far too long today, so time for me to turn into a pumpkin for the night! POOF, I am pumkin.
    LOL Take care all, I will be back tomorrow. <3 David

  • 108. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    “If you try to elect pro-gay-marriage Republicans, we will Dede Scozzafava them.”

    First is that a threat?…second they are going to person’s name them?….WTF?…..PSHYCO NUTBAGS…..<3…Ronnie

  • 109. Ronnie  |  February 20, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    alvitazane….<3…Ronnie

  • 110. Matt  |  February 20, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    @Albert: Lets see here:

    1) Using the coded phrase "support traditional marriage" instead of simply being honest and saying you want to ban same-sex marriages…

    2) Putting the word "bigot" in Richard's mouth, even though he didn't use that word in his comment, and…

    3) Casting yourself as the victim, even though you're apparently on the side of this debate that wants to deprive others of their constitutional freedoms, while standing to lose none of your own.

    If the worst that you suffer over this is being called a "bigot," then I have no sympathy for you.

  • 111. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    @Felyx
    That was hilarious! And the best part is, it's all true! :)
    Don't worry about alcohol, I'm 25, I'm legit (and not just for that).
    And Lesbitarian — ewwww :) I'm Gaybitarian forever!

  • 112. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    @Felyx
    Well, if you caught it yourself, then I must admit: I am VERY impressed with your Russian! If you are familiar with these intricacies of the language, then you must be very well educated. I take off my hat! (Снимаю шляпу!)

    @Richard
    How did you know that I like to take a long relaxing bath?
    Oh, well, I guess it's like every other gay man :)

    ♥♥♥♥ you, guys!
    –Kirill

  • 113. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:10 pm

    Kirill!!!

  • 114. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    @Michelle Evans
    Thank you for your input! I agree with everything!
    The only problem is carefully defining the line that cannot be crossed — what they can say as part of their religious beliefs, and what they cannot say as outright lies that have no grounds and are not even described in the Bible: calling homosexuality a sin is what they can say — “sin” is not a secular term, it should not mean anything to those who do not associate themselves with this particular religion, let 'em call it a sin and call us sinners — we don't care, we don't believe in their definition of sin, just like they don't believe in our definition of marriage, love, and commitment; but calling us child molesters and recruiters is the most disgusting lie made up by priests-activists who sometimes forget they should be looking into their scripture, not making up stories.

    These lies make me angry, especially because they are so personal for me. When I was 13, some creep tried to lure me to some secluded place and rape me, I'm lucky I got out of there alive and intact (and now they dare insinuate I am just like that creep? it really angers me! I would never wish anyone to go through what I had to go through — the fear and feeling of helplessness!). And the other thing (about recruiting) — I wish I could recruit people and I wish anyone could be so easily recruited… I've been in love with my former group-mate for 5 years now, and I could never tell him about my feelings, hoping someday they will no longer burden me… doesn't work that way… I don't know if he's gay, most likely he is not — what are the odds for us both to win the lottery of being gay and, after that, being into each other? I wish I knew how to turn him gay and love him forever. But I can't. No one recruits anyone. If anything, some gay people can see that some poor guy is gay and doesn't even know it, or fears it, so they help him to come out and accept himself… but recruiting? that's bullshit! I wish I could recruit him. I love him too much. But I can't.

  • 115. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    Kirill!

    I am glad you like my 'religion'. I thought it would give you a laugh. I will make the ceremony for real one day foy you, why not?! You might even for the first time feel like you have joined an actual 'church'!!!

    I will have to admit, ne govoryu parusskii! Not really. It is easy to learn language for some reason. Moi otets gei uchit menya. On pichet mne pis'ma. Oni vsegda zakonchit' "S lyubov'yu". So while I should be making many mistakes, that is one I did catch right away!

    So please, naden'te shlyapu….you golova is getting cold! Hahahaha!!!!

    Slyubov'yu,
    Felyx

  • 116. Felyx  |  February 20, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    Kirill,

    BTW, You will have to write me some time. You will have to ask Richard for my email. Felyx

  • 117. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:07 pm

    @Richard
    It's nice to know that I'm not alone in my beliefs (more like opinions)!
    Generally I prefer to avoid any influences on my “thought process” in cognition of the Universe, its origin, our place there, our purpose, and God. But sometimes, of course, it can be helpful to get acquainted with some different but similar opinions, especially when you think you've reached the point where you no longer need any further explanations. So, I would be very interested to exchange some opinions with you via email you've posted (not a good idea, BTW, to post it openly like that, I hope you have a decent SPAM-checker).
    I have accepted your friend request on YouTube and have sent you a similar request on Facebook.
    Thank you for your will to share some wisdom!

  • 118. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    @Dieter
    I hear you were put forward as a possible candidate for US Presidency in 2012… So, if you win and if we are married, what am I gonna be? First Lady? or I still can hope to be First Gentleman? I remember all those “First Lady” jokes about Bill Clinton when Hillary was proposed for Presidency (I was hoping she would be a new President), and he wasn't even gay (the whole world knows how not gay he is — see Monica Lewinsky). All in all, we both know you can do better.

  • 119. Straight Dave  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    Been offline here for a bit, so someone else may already have taken this up, but here's my 2 cents. When I hear “love the sinner, hate the sin”, I think what the speaker really means is:
    "love the person who is honestly being who they naturally are, which is ….. a really bad person doing evil things." I mean, look at the nouns they have chosen to use!

    I still find that to be incredibly derogatory and condescending, while trying to pretend to be all loving and tolerant and supportive in order to make the speaker look good. Meanwhile, they're packed full of hate.

    Blecccchhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

    I prefer to be much more straightforward about it – "hate the hater and hate the hate". At least it's honest and consistent. But sometimes that's just too much hate for my stomach to take, so on a good day I might go with "educate the uninformed who are reachable and don't let the rest of them get away with any crap,".

    Happy holy day.
    ….at least it is in this country/continent/random geographic area/blob of land
    … at least for some of us who practice such things
    … on some days
    … depending

    Gee, this is getting too difficult. What can't we all be identical? That would make everything so much easier :)

  • 120. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:09 pm

    "That would make everything so much easier :)"
    …..and VERY boring!!! 😉

  • 121. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 20, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    @Felyx

    [I]f you think you got it bad you ought to read Kirill’s description of Russia!!!

    And to those Russian gays I say: “If you think you got it bad, you ought to read about gays in Iraq, Iran, other Muslim or African countries where gay people are being killed on a daily basis.” Seriously, did you know that in Iraq any Iraqi man is allowed to come to another Iraqi man (who admits to being gay or is perceived as gay) and kill him, right there on the street?! I kid you not! Anyone can be an executioner, they don't even have to report anyone to law enforcement officers and have a trial — what a “great” country! Not long ago there was a hearing in some Iraqi court where a man was charged with murder… all he had to say is that the man he killed on the street was gay — not only he was exonerated from this crime, he was praised as a hero upon his release from custody! Whenever I feel like things are bad for gays in Russia, I remember about all those gay brothers and sisters of ours who were unlucky to be born in those hateful countries — I have no excuse to whine about my mishaps when I'm not the one who has it so bad!

    –Kirill

  • 122. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:13 am

    Because it depends on what you define as "traditional" marriage. If you see marriage in strictly its LEGAL construction where it is a LEGAL recognition of the love and commitment shared by any two adults, or whether you take the narrow religinistic, revisionist view that it is strictly, only, for procreation. When you view marriage in the LEGAL sense, and grant those rights to all adults, then you are not a bigot. It is only when you try to read the mind of G-d, when you try to bring religious superstition and fear into the debate, and try to restrict marriage as if it is some country club where Jews, blacks, Hispanics, and others who are not White Anglo-Saxon Protestant are banned, that you become a bigot. After all, if you claim to be a Christian, and you claim to follow Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef, then you need to go back and read the two greatest commandments. And as far as your comments about Paul, it is now believed that the books commonly attributed to him were not written by him at all, but, like the "four gospels" written by someone much later who was trying to read paul's mind long after he was gone. So many of you justify your bigotry based on a book that has been mstranslated, misinterpreted, butchered, an otherwise defamed prior to it coming to our time, and you still want to claim that it is the inerrant, infallible, wor of G-d, and that it was totally dictated to the writers by G-d. And as far as that rapture stuff, that is a modern concept also. It did not come about until the late 1800's. The book of revelation had nothing to do with an apocolypse. It was a code to the Jews who had converted, using Jewish symbology, to point out what was going to happen in the Holy Roman Empire. Everything in that bookl was a way to strengthen the Jewish community in their faih, and it was NEVER meant to be used as a cudgel to get someone to repent of sins that were defined by human beings. When will you people realize that love is NOT a sin?

  • 123. fiona64  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:17 am

    Dear A.M.:

    You know, it's interesting that you bring up Saul of Tarsus. While he was a contemporary of Yeshua ben Yosef, the two never met. The self-created Paul had his own agenda, and he preached it. He loathed the Greeks' nonchalant tolerance of homosexuality, and so he railed against it.

    You see, back in the day, sexual orientation was not understood as it is today. Sex had to components: the one who did it, and the one who was done to. Furthermore, sex was never something that happened between social equals. Women were of inferior status, so it was okay for them to be "done to." When two men were together, that was unacceptable because men were social equals (unless one of them was a slave). In any event, the word "abomination," as thrown about in English mistranslations, was not even coined at that time (it's 16th C. Latinate). The word was "toevah," which means ritually impure. This meant that a man could not return to temple until he had completed certain rites to repurify himself. To give you an idea, being near to a woman on her menstrual period was also "toevah."

    So, with all of that said … even if the USA was a theocracy (which it isn't) and even if being gay or lesbian were a sin (it isn't), the Bible is irrelevant to discussions of equality under civil law — which is all that our LGBT fellow citizens are seeking.

    Love,
    Fiona (a straight ally who is also an anthropology major)

  • 124. fiona64  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:19 am

    This is a passage I find myself citing to those who state that "God hates abortion and thinks it is murder."

    I never cease to be amazed at the people who think that their deity is so weak that he requires some slack-jawed yokel to serve as a mouthpiece.

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 125. Straight Dave  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:29 am

    Oh definitely, Richard!
    For instance, if everyone were male, I would be quite out of luck.

    I was just taking a dig at our opponents who can't seem to handle diversity in any shape or form.

  • 126. Bill  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:42 am

    Well, if they say they were always straight and never made a choice, then they have proved OUR point.

    Either way, WE WIN.

  • 127. Bill  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:47 am

    Point taken and apology offered.

    But let's not attack or quibble.

  • 128. Bill  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:50 am

    @ Albert.M | February 20, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    Your post supposes that there are two sides to this issue.

    There aren't.

  • 129. Bill  |  February 21, 2010 at 12:52 am

    You wouldn't be 'out of luck' if the world were all male, Straight Dave.

    I guess you haven't read all about our conversion techniques? According to your people, it's really quite simple for us gays to convert y'all.

  • 130. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 1:42 am

    @Bill
    I don't wanna be a “party-pooper,” but I think this logic of yours doesn't work to actually prove our point that homosexuality is not something that can be easily chosen. Their side can always say that heterosexuality is not something you choose — simply because it is a default trait, a naturally conceived trait, a baseline to measure everything else by. This is not what we should be arguing, instead we should be proving that it is extremely hard to just make a choice towards homosexuality and give up heterosexuality (and vice versa), that most of us, the gays, never felt making this choice, and most of us, the gays, feel we cannot make the choice to “return” to “natural orientation” — this proves that we are born that way, we do not switch the teams, so why should we be discriminated against simply because of some inborn trait that is extremely hard and psychologically dangerous to amend?

  • 131. PDXAndrew  |  February 21, 2010 at 2:11 am

    I've been thinking about the haterosexuals claim that 'traditional' marriage is 'first and foremost a procreative institution'.
      Then why doesn't the 'traditional' marriage VOW not reflect this?

    It mentions 'to have and to hold, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part.' To me, that sounds a lot like a declaration of LOVE instead.

    I can just immagine the wedding vows at NOM: 

     I, Idiot , take you, Maggot, for my lawful procreative partner , to have babies and to hold dirty diapers, from this day forward, for better for ne, for worse for everyone else, for richer getting richer, for poorer getting poorer, in sickness without health care reform, until we get bored and file for divorce.

    Love, Andrew

  • 132. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 21, 2010 at 2:27 am

    Not being RC, I can't cite verbatim, but it my understanding that when a couple is of childbearing age, part of the vows include "~~will you accept the responsibility of children~~~?"

  • 133. Linda  |  February 21, 2010 at 2:35 am

    It is part of the Eastern Orthodox marriage liturgy as well.

    I guess this means that not even the Christian denominations are in agreement on what marriage entails.

    Of course, this takes me right back to my frustration–religion should not even be in this debate. We should not have to get permission from the current religious majority. It is not up to them who can or cannot enjoy their civil rights.

  • 134. fiona64  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:06 am

    Remember that Catholic wedding mass I mentioned? I was there because it was my then-fiance's brother who was marrying. I remember this very clearly, because I asked him about it as I'd never heard children referred to in the wedding vows before (emphasis added):
    http://www.weddingclipart.com/guide/wedding-vows/

    He then asks if they will honor and love one another as husband and wife for the rest of their lives, and if they will accept children from God lovingly and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church. The couple answers each question in the affirmative.

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 135. PDXAndrew  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:08 am

    I stand corrected. Shows you how many religious weddings I've been to — or at least paid attention to. Since I can't get one w/out lying about who I am, I tend to find them pretty depressing.
    That, and the few hot guys I see are usually batting for the wrong team anyways.

  • 136. Straight Dave  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:17 am

    So they claim, but I take issue with your reference to "your people", Bill. I'd really rather not be lumped into the same category. When I add it all up, I prefer to be considered one of "your people" for so many other more important reasons. That one tiny little minor detail doesn't amount to a hill of beans by comparison.

  • 137. Bill  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:18 am

    Some breaking NOM news:
    http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNe

    LOVES IT!!!

  • 138. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:21 am

    Andrew, it's not that you are wrong; it's that the wide spectrum of groups that call themselves Christian when highly divergent views on not only weddings vows but a myriad of other issues. I don't know of any Protestant denomination that includes mention of children. So, again, it boils down to who is speaking when they talk about 'traditional marriage'.

  • 139. Bill  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:25 am

    Some sad and scary news from Kenya:
    http://www.chelseanow.com/articles/2010/02/18/gay

    I spoke of this in another post. My fear of this proposed genocide in Uganda spreading to other countries. I fear that it has already begun…

  • 140. Linda  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:30 am

    Richard–thanks.
    Andrew–I didn't mean to poke holes in your statement. Your point is valid, and is actually strengthened by the fact that some Christian denominations include 'children' in their ceremony, and some do not.

    A civil marriage, by contrast, does not have required vows. Really, the 'ceremony' is more for emotional/psychological reasons. The marriage itself is contractual. It does not require a deity, or prayer, or blessing, or sanctifying.

    Religions should definitely be allowed to add their own requirements for marriages they perform; but they do not own the right to marry people; the government does.

    Love,
    Linda

  • 141. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:40 am

    Dammit! Now I'ma gunna hafta wrate sum new vows!!!

  • 142. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 3:47 am

    Let some Haterosexual in this country try to do this SHITE and see if they don't wind up on the receiving end first….<3…Ronnie

  • 143. Layla  |  February 21, 2010 at 4:26 am

    I started a new discussion thread on the facebook P8TT page concerning a video idea i have. Check it out. :-)

  • 144. fiona64  |  February 21, 2010 at 4:32 am

    Linda, you're exactly right. I have two friends who married over dinner at a restaurant. A friend of theirs is a judge, and they signed the paperwork with him as witness. No ceremony, no nothing … and they are just as married as if they'd gone to church.

    Andrew, the *only* time I had heard children referred to in a wedding was in that Catholic one. It took me by surprise. Of course Matthew (now Misha … my ex is now a transwoman and I am never sure how to refer to situations that happened pre-transition. My apologies for any offense to our T friends, because I just don't know what's right in this case) said "Of course they make you promise that. It's how they get more Catholics."

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 145. chris  |  February 21, 2010 at 4:45 am

    I think we have a big OPENING here. For the past year and a half, the anti-gay marriage folks have been portraying themselves as victims and us as bullying, hateful, etc. But when that speaker at CPAC publicly attacked and denounced us as unwelcome, their hypocrisy became visible again. (CAPTAIN! OUR SHIP IS UNCLOAKING!!!!!!) like the klingons from star trek. We need to publicly send gay conservatives to other venues where their presence upsets these guys, because then it will force them to show have unwelcoming they are. Sort of rips their "victim" status to shreds!

  • 146. Bob  |  February 21, 2010 at 4:51 am

    Linda, thanks for admitting you're not out to your parents, I agree this is the most difficult thing for some of us. I wonder how many of us are in this position.

    Are our parents part of the religious right, I know mine are. I agree the issue is a civil rights issue. I live in Canada, the issue was simply decided here by the federal gov't, which gives us the right to enjoy marriage, which I have done.

    But the issue continues around the globe, in varying degrees of hatred, One of the questions I asked of my church and my family was to teach me how to hate. So for prop 8 it's a civil thing, but how can we fight this out there on that level and still not come clean with our own parents, it is difficult, but the best way to deal with oppression is to deal with it where it confronts us. My goal is to make myself present in my families mind when they hear false preaching.

    Living in a country that allows same sex marriage only puts us squarely in the realm of religious awareness and growth, and I might add there are changes happening on this level.

    The first one is an honest relationship with my family, it doesn't make things easy but at least we know what is wrong, and that our spiritual beliefs are being challenged.

    From my dialogue with the church it quickly becomes evident, hate cannot be sustained once the relationship becomes personal. It is our calling as rainbow people to make it personal.

    I have the right to marry, that doesn't excuse me from being involved globally with rainbow people, who are fighting prop8, and the people of Uganda. I flood my families e-mails with these updates. Even my own mother signed the letter in support of abolishing the death penalty in Uganda for gays, this is the first of any sign of activism I have seen from her.

    I prefer this to what we used to have, a relationship based on denial, pretending everything was fine, obviously we don't get together much, they are always on their toes about what I'll bring up and when.but they know where I stand, and hopefully thier level of awareness is more acute, to be able to discern when the preacher is using the pulpit for the wrong reasons.

    Maggie Gallagher does us all such a hudge favour by being out there and obvious, she is the embodiment of my families religious thinking.

  • 147. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 4:54 am

    Another thing is …that the LGBTQQIA community thinks of its self as a global community…I know I do….and right now it is actual fact that the LGBTQQIA community is on the verge of mass murder/genocide in at least 2 countries (Uganda & Kenya)…..Hetersoexuals have not been bashed or murdered for the simple fact that they are straight but LGBTQQI are/have/will/is as well as the "A", our allies just because they support us…..you only become a victim of words if you allow yourself to become a victim of words…but we(LGBTQQIA) are victims of much more in which we did not choose or allow and we are starting to fight back and they hate that….just adds more emphasis to the term that i created…Haterosexulas….<3…Ronnie

  • 148. PDXAndrew  |  February 21, 2010 at 5:02 am

    I never got the chance to come out to my mom before she passed away, but I'm pretty certain she knew and was accepting.

    My sister thinks it's cool… but then she moved to Canada to live with her bf; last I talked about it, she said they're not planning on getting married, just living together. Just another case in point on how important 'marriage' is: I'm still confused as to what i should call their relationship… 'shacking up' just doesn't seem appropriate. Should I call him 'brother-in-law' or 'my sister's long-term boyfriend' or what?

    My dad is a different story… He converted from Russian Orthodox to Catholic when my mom passed away (she was a 'recovering Catholic')… Let's just say I don't talk to him much these days.

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 149. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 5:11 am

    call him your common- bro-in-law…although that is a lttle insulting same as what to you call a sibling domestic partner?….my domestic-in-law?…or what does a family member call my civil union partner?…..my union parter-in-law?…my civil-in-law?…..See, this separate but equal crap cause problems and social stigmatization to the heterosexuals who are our straight allies…..<3…Ronnie

  • 150. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 5:16 am

    @Ronnie
    Because it is a "common law" marriage, it should be "brother-in-common-law" :)
    As for civil unions, I think everybody should and even must use words we all know and mean when entering into civil union because we are not allowed to enter into marriage just yet — husband, wife, spouse, mother-in-law, brother-in-law, and so on and so forth. Because WE KNOW that this is a real marriage for us, and so should our relatives! This is how they will understand that there is no reason to deny is this simple word — MARRIAGE.

  • 151. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 5:26 am

    I agree with that…but as it was brought up in court there is stigmatization and this notion that we have to, on a daily basis, come out….should I introduce him as my husband?….what do I call by brothers domestic partner when we are in public or introducing him to my friends….there is always a pause before saying it out loud…my mother would constantly introduce my aunt's girlfriend as her friend…and I always had to correct her…he doesn't do it anymore….but now there is this pause before she says it….its the social stigmatization that was mentioned in this trial…plain and simple…..<3…Ronnie

  • 152. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 5:35 am

    Kirill Ronnie,

    I agree. By using language that puts us on equal terms it reminds us that we are egual. I even refer to my partnered friends as husband and husband…never boyfriend or partner….and they do not even have DP which is allowed. I feel that after 12 years it doesn't matter.

    Kirill,
    Did you read my message
    @#38. Felyx | February 21, 2010 at 4:27 am…

    I did not want to give you a totally wrong idea. If we were standing face to face I would not ba able to speak to you in Russian….writing while taking my time is different. (If i did speak though, my accent would be very good! Of that I am very proud!)

    Felyx

  • 153. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 5:44 am

    @Ronnie
    Well, this is a different issue.
    If you want to be out to everyone, and just think how should you call your life partner — a husband or just a life partner, I say it's better to use the word "husband" — let 'em know that this is what YOU mean, not what THEY want you to mean.
    But if you are facing the "not shoving it down their throats" problem, and stigmatization problem, then it's not about words like "someone-in-law," then these most important people in our lives become just "friends" and "business associates" (like Beverly Lesly's Benji in Will & Grace).

    @Felyx
    Yes, I've read that… I remember I was staring at one phrase trying to understand if I got it right: that your father is also gay (it said, in translation to English, "My gay father teaches me [Russian language].").
    Anyway, believe me, I know at first hand how complicated Russian language can be, so I would understand the hesitation. You think my English would be fluent if I didn't have this whole internet thing with thousands of videos available to just watch them, listen and learn (that's what I've been doing for the past 3,5 years)? So, because of that, if we were standing face to face, I would be able to talk to you just like any other native speaker. :) But only because of all the hearing practice I've had.

  • 154. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 5:59 am

    Oh trust me……when i get married(still looking) I will call him my husband in public, in private…I will probably walk to people on the street and be like this is my husband you jealous…good….have nice a day…I'm just joshing with that one….i was just pointing out what the mentioned in this trial and what the Haterosexuals seem to ignore…that is effects our straight allies as well…but they also keep ignoring the fact that we have straight allies….<3…Ronnie

  • 155. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 6:01 am

    Kirill,

    I must clarify since you ask…My father is not gay. He does not believe in gay. Like you I got a bath early in life that I didn't quite agree with later on.

    So I, like many, have new family members. Ronnie has called his 'dopty-dad'. I live with mine and take care of him like I did my own father. I would dishonor him to call him anything less than father. I would even take his name if that would make him more proud. (As it stands, I guess in Russia I would call myself Феликс Томасовиch (sorry can't get all letters all the time.)

    So I take care of him, and other gay individuals. They have become my family. That is why I open what I have to those who want to join a family in which they can feel safe and supported.

    I do hope you email me…Richard says he has passed on my email.

    Felyx

  • 156. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 6:03 am

    and France…

  • 157. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 6:10 am

    Vive La France!!! Vous êtes bienvenus ici ma chère grand-mère!

    Avec amour,
    Felyx

  • 158. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 6:42 am

    Linda, I encourage you to be honest with your parents and share with them who you really are. No doubt they will be shocked at first, well at least I was when my children came out, but I go over it pretty quick. If they love you they will come around. The way it is now you are not having an honest child parent relationship with them.

    I find you to be a very critical thinker on this forum and admire you.

  • 159. Linda  |  February 21, 2010 at 6:46 am

    Bob–oddly enough, my parents are about the only ones who don't know; but they are elderly, and yes, very conservative Christian.

    My sister and her family are fine with it; my kids have no problems with it; my colleagues are quite accepting; my aunt is even supportive.

    I believe my parents suspect, but they aren't quite ready to 'know for sure', know what I mean? I imagine that the conversation will happen when Leslie (my gf) moves out here. (I live in CA, she lives in SC).

    I do fully intend to refer to her as my fiancee, and after we marry I will refer to her as my wife. Now, when I say 'after we marry', I don't necessarily mean a legal marriage, since that is not available to us at the moment. But that won't stop us from marrying in every way but the legal way. I agree with Kirill that we should use the words that describe how we think and feel about our relationship. We need to teach ourselves how to be unapologetic about our lives and our love. We can be our own worst enemy at times, because we have been so bombarded with hateful, shameful accusations that we start to believe them on some level.

    It's hard. It's hard to stand up straight and use the words others would deny us. And to use them without hesitancy.

    Again, I say we need to 'Live OUT Loud!'
    Love,
    Linda

  • 160. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 6:47 am

    Straight Dave, I do like your line but I will tweek it a tad. "Love the hater but hate the hate." This really turns that patronizing phrase right back at them in the exact same patronizing manner. (I used to post as RPX but changed it to Straight Grandmother to more accurately reflect who I am)

  • 161. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 6:59 am

    Krill…hmmm..I enjoy your posts very much but I have a nagging feeling that in fact you are not a 25 year old Russian. I have more the feeling that you are American and know Russian. Or that you are a much older Russian who has received specific training in USA.

    I am not saying this to pick on you, not at all, nor to start a fight here as I have absolutely no interest in that, really. Your command of Americanized English and the vast subject matters you post has led me to this opinion. I have a hard time believing you got this all out of YouTube from Russia at 25 years of age. There is a story that you are keeping to yourself and that is your right.

  • 162. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:00 am

    @Felyx
    Now I'm completely confused. Your bio-dad does not believe in gay, so now you have a dopty-dad — and none of them is gay? Because this is what you've said in Russian, of that I am sure (“Moi otets gei uchit menya.”). Probably, it was a typo? I feel weird to talk about your fathers' sexuality — it's completely none of my business and this is probably not the place to even discuss that.
    And yes, Richard gave me your email, I just didn't know what to write about yet. :)

  • 163. Bob  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:16 am

    Linda, thanks for the response, I admire you, but I want you to know I deal with the same issues, my mother is widowed, alone, and 88, I realized the only one I was protecting by not confronting her, was myself, it's a painful thing to do, but it's all done in one shot, over the phone, mom I'm a homosexual, and I am in a loving relationship, send her the pics of our marriage etc.
    You're right, we are taught by these christians when we're young and naive, and so we take on the hatered of ourselves in most distructive ways. They no longer had to hate me, I hated myself, and they just assumed I had psych problems because that's the curse of being gay.

    We can put it back on them, and not take it on ourselves. I first have to acknowledge I am homosexual, to love myself, and then pronounce myself in those terms, to my family, it's they not I that have to come to grips with it know.

    When you tell your parents, it's a loving thing to do , share your personal life, just remember that. you're loving them not protecting them from something evil.

  • 164. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:17 am

    Linda,
    My mother in law was in her 80's and my parents in their 70's when we called them up and told them that our 2 children, our only children, were gay. Their grandchildren. My parents go to church every Sunday, very fundamental Lutherans, and they took a bit of time to get used to the idea but they are fine with it. And by a bit of time I mean like a week.

    I actually think older people can be more liberal than you think. Because of their long time on this earth they have seen a lot and have figured out that what really matters is that people are better off with life spouces. So much of the discussion on these message boards is anti religion that I think the member here forget that not just hate of homosexual acts is preached from the pulpit but also love. Love your neighbor, do onto others, etc etc.

    When our kids came out to us we told them we were ging to tell everyone on both sides of the family and they said go ahead. I never would want to be dishonest with my family so I thought as long as we now knew that everybody should know and let the chips fall where they may. Not ONE person in our family rejected our children, not one. At the non legal weddings of our children allt he great aunts showed up in thier 70's and 80's and they traveld from great distances to attend. And the whole family is religious on my side up through the generations.

    You are a grown woman with chidlren of your own so you will do what you think is best. Our whole family is enriched by the common knowledge we share about who we are. That's all I wanted to share with you. Just don't count your parents out is all, that you think you will know their ultimate reaction (albeit after a period for them to get used to it). I bet they will never stop loving you, I can tell by your posts you are a very nice woman and they raised a nice daughter.

  • 165. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:17 am

    Kirill,

    Email just to introduce yourself. My gay father would love to talk with you. My gay father is like adoptive but I treat him as real because he is more real than was my biological father. I hope this helps.

    S lubovyu,
    Felyx

    PS: Mozhet bit, ti budesh malenkii-brat?! :`)

  • 166. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:19 am

    Bob, so you never finished the story. How did it go with your mom after you told her?

  • 167. PDXAndrew  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:20 am

    No, thank you guys for pointing out how some churches really DO define marriage as being child-friendly — at least as a footnote to the whole 'love, honor, and cherish' thing.
    I had made an assumption that the hateros were, once again, being hypocrites… It's been such an overwhelming pattern, I jumped to the conclusion based on my limited experience – mostly the weddings done in movies, where I don't remember the children thing ever being mentioned.
    I do not want to fall into the same trap they make, stereotyping us and assuming based on faulty information. To win our freedom, we must be better humans than they are. So, again, thanks for keeping us honest and truthful!!!

    Though, this whole thing about different hatero churches having different 'traditional' vows makes me wonder: what ARE the 'traditional' vows for other organizations, both accepting and not? I mean, the hateros keep talking about how marriage us the sane in all cultures throughout time. We know that's not true, but I wonder what they DO say.
    Do the Mormons use similar language? How about practicing Druids? Muslim, Hindu, Baptist?

    Just curious now :)
    Love, Andrew

  • 168. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:21 am

    Bob, so you never did finish the story? How did your mtoher take it? Does she still love you?

  • 169. deppy  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:38 am

    This is really irritating me, so I have to say something…

    As a second time poster I really hate it to be a rant such as this, but Felyx.. I hope you realize that the official demonym for people who live in the United States of America is 'American'. Nobody refers to themselves as being from the continent on which they live. A German would never refer to themself as "I am European". They would say "I am German".

    Also when writing or speaking of the North/South American countries, nobody would ever refer to any of the 23 individual countries as America except for The United States. It's not to be arrogant, it's not to belittle the fact that there are other nations on the same continent, it's just short, easy, and part of the countries name. Nobody would *EVER* refer to New Zeland as the name "Australia" even though it's a part of that continent.

  • 170. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:43 am

    @Straight Grandmother

    You know, this is the kind of highest form of appreciation I always wanted to hear from somebody — that they do not believe I live in Russia or that I'm only 25. Of course, I'm not going to pick a fight with you over that, au contraire, I am very flattered! Thank you! This means that I am not overestimating my language skills when I indicate in my résumé: “English — fluent.”

    I didn't get this all out of YouTube, of course. Mostly, it comes from various American television programs, series, movies — I've watched literally about ten thousand hours of videos in English, not to mention books and websites like this one. I've already mentioned somewhere on this page that I've been learning English for 14 years now (since 5th grade of school), and I really got into it about 3.5 years ago (this is when internet came into my life and opened up all these opportunities; I wish I've had them before, so much time lost on stupid things) — it's enough to get better at this.

    I've never in my life been outside of former USSR, but I really want to see the world. I just love, love, love, love English language — I'm a nerd, what can I say? [Did somebody say “hot gay nerd?” — no, not hot, unfortunately! :-)] And have you met today's tweenagers? They are so smart! By 25 they would know many times more than I do now! I envy them! So, it is really funny for me when people don't believe what I say about myself.

  • 171. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:53 am

    I think there is a significant portion of THE WORLD that would disagree with you. Especially that part of the world that has to clarify when abroad that while yes we are 'American' we are most certainly not from the US. Furthermore, there is more than one language where the 'official' demonym is United-Statesian and not American.

    Lastly, just because scientifically we are called homosexuals, there are few here who feel that that is an appropriate way to self describe….hence the need for Gay…..and Lesbian…..and Bisexual……and Transgendered…..Transsexual….Queer….Questioning…..Intersexed…..Allied…..and just plain don't tell me who I am because I know damn well who I am and it ain't what you say that I am!

    So yes…..technicalities aside….USA or People of the US or USian will do far better towards living peaceably in the world.

    Respectfully,
    Felyx, A fellow American who likes to stick up for the US and gets flack for it but feels it important to speak up anyway.

  • 172. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:03 am

    Felyx, if you went to Europe or China (or where ever) and told people you are American, how many would even venture to assume that you might be from one of the Canadian provinces?

  • 173. Bob  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:37 am

    Straight Grandmother, thanks for asking, my mother still loves me, being a mother you know these things, my mother explained to me that one thing I would never know was a mother's heart. Still is the operative word, she claims to always have loved me, even when I never percieved it as so.
    When I told her I forgave her for adhereing so strongly to religious beliefs that were so spiritually damaging to me, she found that confusing, cause she never saw it that way.
    One day she happened to mention to me about being in her quilting group at the church and how much she enjoyed that, they are always making quilts for poor people in other countries. So I asked her what they talked about in their circle while stiching, she said they shared their lives, I asked if they ever talked about gay marriage, or if she told them she had a gay son. She sounded very offended by that, and said no they don't discuss those things.
    After my marriage, she told me more about the things of her heart, she said she believed a marriage was between a man and a woman, but in her heart she was very glad that I had found someone to love and to love me back.
    I have encouraged her that this paradox or disconnect will produce real spiritual fruit, what she knows in her heart and what she believes are at odds, she now has to decide wether to follow a belief her church expects of her, or to folllow her own heart.
    Our relationship is unfolding and as a grandmother you know that the major change is inside myself personally, my mother always loved me, it was me who believed I was unlovable, and that has been the major change.
    I too am old for coming out and dealing with all these issues, but there is no wrong time, I come from a large family with many siblings, and many many nieces and nephews, my mother has the benefit of large extended loving family, I, have been waiting for the next rainbow child to come into our family, and finally it happened, hopefully his journey will be a little more easy because of what we have been through. cheers Bob

  • 174. Bob  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:49 am

    Straight Grandmother, hi, sorry I replied before reading your post to Linda, you will find this interesting, I'm Lutheran, and not the Evangelical Kind, (in the states they have accepted gay marriage) but the Missouri Synod, or what we refer to as the misery synod. It's interesting when you get into all the different synods, I looked after my aunt who was 92 when she died, and her sister is 87, we used to have the most engaging conversations about homosexuality, often with their pastor, he was on my side, my one old aunt insisted that we were both wrong. but my other aunt said she wasn't taking sides, and she wouldn't ask a pastor because he had no business interfeing with her love for her nephew.
    I am presently trying to get my family to engage in the discussion on human sexuality that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada has put forward, following the one in the states. So far no bites. cheers Bob

  • 175. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:49 am

    Ok so I'm watching an episode of "Smurfs" (DON"T JUDGE ME!!!!) and it revolves around "Vanity Smurf"…..um Gaydar alert…BEEP BEEP BEEP!!!!….I guess the Haterosexuals need to stop their kids from watching that too yeah?…..<3…Ronnie

  • 176. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:52 am

    Richard,
    I don't travel to other countries and tell people I am American. It is not my habit my upbringing and it is considered arrogant by very many others.

    When US persons come to our Commonwealth and declare that they are American we either ignore the arrogance or politely educate them that they are in our language referred to as United-Statesians. Most non-US Americans are polite enough to clarify and only refer to themselves as American within the context of the conversation (usually that of international interests.)

  • 177. Linda  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:57 am

    Ronnie–the Smurfs *were* considered evil. I remember when my kids were very little (and I was still attending church), parents were adamantly opposed to letting their children watch that evil show.

    The same went with Barney, Care Bears, and of course TeleTubbies.

    And we won't even talk about Harry Potter!

    Love,
    Linda

  • 178. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:59 am

    Ronnie,
    It was Bugs Bunny that did it for me!!!

    "Monsters are such innnnteresting creatures!"

    Felyx

  • 179. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 9:01 am

    Thats right…….Bugs bunny was a cross dresser…….ROTFLMGAO……<3…Ronnie

  • 180. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 9:04 am

    My favorite cartoons were Gummy Bears, Snorks, The Jetsens, and My Little Pony(DON"T JUDGE ME!!!)…<3…Ronnie

  • 181. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 9:04 am

    OMG Ronnie!!!

    That's how we are doing it….that is how we are all getting recruited!! CARTOONS!!!! No not the violent ones that teach kids that you can shoot each other with lethal weapons and still walk away; no it is the thoughtful peaceful ones that teach non-violence and love!!! Damn we are sneaky!!!

    …..Of course, that doesn't really explain the Lesbians though, does it?

  • 182. Ronnie  |  February 21, 2010 at 9:12 am

    LMAO!!!!…..maybe G.I.Joe is responsible for Lesbians? or Swat Cats…hehehe….get it because cat is another word for well you know…hehehe…..The funniest thing is that those cartoons were created by heteros…enough said….<3…Ronnie

  • 183. Linda  |  February 21, 2010 at 9:13 am

    Straight Grandmother–You are so kind! I do know that my parents would never stop loving me. I also suspect that they will be hurt and embarrassed. Hurt, because they truly believe that homosexuality is a sin. It is going to be difficult for them.

    I do think that they know, on some level; and they have also commented on how good I'm looking, how happy I seem, etc. I think they are content at this point to leave it undeclared. When Leslie moves here, my parents will have to face it; and when they ask, I will answer honestly.

    I so appreciate your words of encouragement! It really does mean a lot. This has been quite a process for me. I grew up never allowing myself to even consider the possibility that I was gay, because that was sinful. I knew that I could 'go that way' (be lesbian) if I wasn't really careful, though. Whenever I would entertain the idea I felt such peace! But I would dismiss it; push it out of my thoughts, because I believed it was wrong. It took years of misery and loneliness, and a failed, miserable marriage to force me to honestly look in the mirror and accept myself.

    I know that the fact of my existence is in direct conflict with how my parents interpret scripture. This is going to be something they will wrestle with, and it will cause pain. I am hoping that the positive changes they have seen in me will help them through this. They cannot deny that I am doing much better now.

    Ha! That's probably more about me than anyone ever wanted to know!

    Love,
    Linda

  • 184. Sheryl  |  February 21, 2010 at 9:25 am

    I've never been to a ceremony where children are a part of the vow. As to Mormons, if it is a temple sealing then, as I understand it, the sealer (who also has authority from the state to perform weddings, so it is a valid marriage in the eyes of the state) does have some leeway in what is said, although there is some required language. And a temple marriage is for time and eternity as opposed to "until death do us part in a non-temple marriage." If it is just a wedding (not a sealing and not performed in the temple), then it can be the typical as you would get in a judges chamber or the couple can write their own vows.

    Interesting that traditional Catholic vows do include reference to children.

    As always, I keep learning from being here.

    Sheryl

  • 185. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 10:11 am

    @Linda
    I don't know about others, but I'm glad you've shared your story! We do want to know and we do care! The more stories like yours I hear, the better I see how destructive religious bias and prejudice can be! I was baptized (Orthodox Christianity), but my family never really cared about religion, I think they did it just in case (thank God they didn't get around to circumcision — another useless thing just in case). So, I didn't have to deal with this religious pressure, it was easier to come out to myself and just accept it, no Bible crap, no guilt about this non-existent sin, just this horrific image of homosexuality that has been promoted by haterosexuals for decades and centuries. I am sorry you had it worse than me over here in Russia, I am sorry you had to go through a bad marriage with a man you probably couldn't really love, the way you love your girlfriend from SC now. I wish you all the happiness in the world and I hope Prop 8 will be overturned for you two to get legally married one of these days!

    –Kirill

  • 186. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 10:22 am

    @Felyx
    So I did. If you haven't received a letter, Richard must have given me the wrong address.
    Thanks for de-confusing me about your dads!
    Being your little brother? Well, let's see where fate decides to drop me off… :)

    –Kirill

  • 187. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 21, 2010 at 10:49 am

    Albert M.I wonder if you realize how often "Love the sinner but Hate the sin" is used by those who claim to be able to read G-d's mind to justify any torure they put anyone through who is different from them. How many of those same people who wear WWJD bracelets who actually violate the very principles of that same dead Jew by hating anyone wh they see as beneath them or who they see as a sinner simply because they are not attendees of the same church or denomination they are. You see, if they really want to follow the teachings of Yeshua ben Yosef, then they need to start by heeding what he hiimself said are the two greatest commandments–To love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, your mind, your soul, and your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. This tells me that those who attack us do not really love themseves, or they would allow us our full civil and legal rights and forget about shoving their religion down our throats. You see, I do not want so-called Christians recruiting me and violating my rights to the religious freedom to practice the religion of my race–the Jews. When someone tries to proselytize me and return me to a religion thaqt placed a severe burden on me, instead of llo ing me to return to the religion of my heritage where I am freer to be who G-d created me to be, then they are trampling upon my religious freedom. Yet, by the fact that I want to have the legal status of being married to the man I love, who is a Lubavitcher Jewish rabbi, they accuse me of trampling upon their religious freedom. I do not need your church, or synagogue, or mosque to get married in. All I need is a JP's office, or a Judge's Chambers, or a magistrate's office. And we have a rabbi herein our state who feels her religious freedom gets impinged upon and trampled on when she is told by a "Christian" that she cannot give religious recognition to same gender couples who are part of her congregation. And what about the fact that my husband (in all but the legal status) is the rabbi for the LGBTQQIA community scattered throughout North and South Carolina? What about his religious freedom to perform a Jewish wedding ceremony for same gender couples? Do you really want to trample on the religious freedom of the race that has throughout history been called "G-d's Chosen People?" Do you really? Well, that is exactly what Proposition H8 has done. It has trampled upon the religious freedoms of those who support full marriage equality and wish to celebrate the weddings of all their friends, not just those who enter into different gender marriages. When you try ot use theological texts as biology textbooks, you really shortchange yourself. When you try to use religious texts as the sole source of your information, instead of relying upon the context of the culture, and the history of the people, you shortchange yourself there also. And when you try to justify hatred by veiling it in religious belief, and when you try to legislate for all people based on one view of religion, you shortchange yourself. When you oppress one segment of society, you place the same oppression upon yourself. When you use religion as an excuse to hate someone you violate the very concept behind the reminder WWJD.

  • 188. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 21, 2010 at 11:00 am

    which tradition's marriage do you want to support–The middle eastern traition of multiple wives and multiple concubines? The tradition aof being legally able to marry your first cousin, which means that so long as it is not your sister or brother, incest is legal? The tradition where the wife is property and has no rights, and the husband can force her to have sex any time he wants it? Or the tradition where the father of the groom buys the birde at birth simply because she comes from "the right family line" and will add riches and land to the arrangement? Or the royal tradition where the brides and grooms were a means of procuring military alliances and a form of peace? I prefer to defend the tradition where marriage is for love, and that the legal and civil recognition of that love is the same for all people who are over the age of majority. The tradition where marriage is a joining of two adult people who want to spend te rest of their lives together, no ore than two people, and no less than two people. And please do NOT try to give me that procreation crapola. If that were the case, then the law would require all sorts of fertility tests for both parties seeking a marriage license. But that is not the case.

  • 189. Roger  |  February 21, 2010 at 11:19 am

    I wouldn't be too sure of that, Straight Grandmother. Many years ago I had a brief but torrid affair with a young Russian bear visiting here in Australia — and you couldn't get more Russian than Sascha, whose great-grandfather was the ringleader of the group who asassinated Rasputin. (That was so-so in his book; he was much prouder of his great-grandfather's great grandfather having commisioned Beethoven's great Quartets in E-flat, B-flat and A minor…)

    Anyway, he spoke perfect, idiomatic English, better and richer in vocabulary than my own. I vividly remember one morning when we got up saying, "This flat is a shambles!", to which he replied, "Not really. It doesn't smell of blood!"

    How so, says I. "Well,' says he, "the Shambles was originally the name of the London slaughterhouse, back in the 15th century."

    How did he know that? (I certainly didn't.) It turned out that when he was learning English in high school back home in Leningrad, the teacher gave the students a copy of the Concise Oxford Dictionary, divided the number of pages by the days in the school year, and set them to learn that number of pages each day… and they watched a British or American movie at least once a week.

    I used to read Time magazine in those days, and I once showed him an article comparing the American and Russian education systems. When he came to the lament that "Russian ten-year-olds are reading Tolstoi and Dostoyevski when American kids are still picking their way through books by women with three names" he hooted. "We just study harder!"

  • 190. Straight Grandmother  |  February 21, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Linda I predict they will never ask. Waiting to be asked by them is kind of the chicken way out isn't it? If you think it will be dificult, then by you approaching them it will be better for them. You know what, I also was embarassed at first. But you know what also? I got over it and it really didn't take me all that much time to get over it. The BEST is seeing my children happy with their spouces.

  • 191. Linda  |  February 21, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    Straight Grandmother–Yep; it's definitely the chicken way out! :)

    My mother is quite the inquisitive type, though; I do think she'll ask. If not, hmm…..it's hard to know how to bring it up. I admit I'm scared to do it face to face because then I have to witness, and be subject to, their initial reaction. I've thought about writing them a letter, but that seemed a bit impersonal.

    I'm the type who tends to wait till it 'feels right'. I trust my gut instinct, and it's usually right on. I do think that when Leslie moves out here, and in with me, it will prompt *the* conversation.

    I'll certainly keep you all posted!

    Love,
    Linda

  • 192. Felyx  |  February 21, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    Linda,

    You could always bring up some of the research in the book I talked about and ask her her scholarly opinion.

    Just a thought…go with you guts first though….afterall, they always go with you!!! LOL!

    (Ahhh….tears….I kill me!) Very very love, Felyx
    http://www.truthsetsfree.net/study.html

  • 193. Ed-M  |  February 21, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Linda, I share your fear of a Christian theocracy by the right-winged crazies who call themselves Christian. My concern is that not only would they exterminate us, but in their mad desire to bring on the Rapture and the Apocalypse, they would start World War 3! For 45 years the US and the USSR fought the Cold War knowing the alternative – WW# – would be certain death to life on Earth. Well now the USSR is gone but we have other countries that the right-winged crazies loathe and fear (ex: Russia aka Gog & Magog in fundie speak) and have intercontinental nuclear missiles and lots of them!

  • 194. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 21, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    @Ed-M
    You say Russia, but US is clearly going after other countries: first it was Iraq, now they are looking at Iran and North Korea… And even though Russia is not formally part of their Axis of Evil, we all know what are the attitudes, however, we're kinda frienemies (US and Russia) — our Presidents call each other to chat about global politics, they shake hands and everything, but the ongoing rivalry is obvious to everyone.

  • 195. Sheryl Carver  |  February 21, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    After reading/hearing/watching so much nastiness from the leaders of certain religions, I think the phrase should be something like:

    "love the person, beware their religion"

  • 196. Dave T  |  February 22, 2010 at 12:38 am

    Hi Bob,

    As a Canadian living in the US for the past decade, I've been a little out of touch with the evolution of SSM in Canada since it became legal. Everyone I know is happy about it (or maybe happy is too strong a word – indifferent? It's really a non-issue to everyone I know) but admittedly, my friends & family are pretty progressive. But I have no idea how it has changed society at large (and, in particular, how the right wing & the religious are dealing with it).

    Could you give us a brief run down of the changes that have taken place since SSM became legal in Canada?

  • 197. Straight Grandmother  |  February 22, 2010 at 2:44 am

    @Krill,
    Well I am glad I mad you happy. The post by Roger really influenced me.

  • 198. Straight Grandmother  |  February 22, 2010 at 2:48 am

    Bob my parents out Lutheran your mom, they are even more conservative, Wisconsin Synod…LOL

  • 199. John  |  February 22, 2010 at 2:56 am

    I have come across at least three homosexual bloogers who are vehemently against same-sex marriage.

    I should add that they're also vehemently against homosexual sex. One of them is closeted and celibate. One is married to a woman but freely admits his attractions are primarily to men. The third I can't remember but he's an author and speaks publicly about how we don't deserve marriage or sex.

    The common link is they're all self-loathing. If they deny themselves what their nature wants, they think nothing of insisting that we should be denied, as well.

  • 200. fiona64  |  February 22, 2010 at 3:04 am

    I have recently (as you all know) achieved a whole new level of pity for people like this. :-(

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 201. fiona64  |  February 22, 2010 at 5:00 am

    "Dear Jesus: Please save me from your followers."

    Alternately:

    "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so very unlike your Christ." — Mohandas K. Ghandi

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 202. deppy  |  February 22, 2010 at 5:01 am

    This sounds like the poor little brother who is playing the victim mentality over such a small issue though…

    I'm an American living in Germany (or by your standards, a United-Statesian). I have friends of just about every nationality here, including Mexicans and Canadians… not a single one of them gets offended if I refer to myself as American and not once have they ever refered to themselves as American. They are Canadian or Mexican.

    You can't argue that "in other languages the official demonym for people from the US…" because we're all speaking English here, so we should be using the official demonym of the language we are speaking.

    I'm sure we'll agree to disagree in the end…but I felt I at least needed to add my two cents and it doesn't mean I love you any less :-)

    <3

  • 203. fern  |  February 22, 2010 at 6:17 am

    Shellfish doesn't last too long without refrigeration.
    Pork is full of bacteria and needs to be well cooked.
    When killing an animal, it had to be eaten within the week before it started to rot so once a week they had to eat fish or fast. Religion made these rules to protect the people.
    (people were afraid of God not of rotten meat, so they listened).
    The sad thing is that they still are afraid of God and do not use their better judgment and also it's easier to explain the unexplainable by saying it is God's will.

  • 204. Alex D  |  February 22, 2010 at 6:55 am

    Is "United Statesian" any better?

    Isn't Mexico, officially:
    "United Mexican States"?
    ("Estados Unidas Mexicanas")?

    So how do I know which you mean?

    To my knowledge, we are the only country with "America" in the name, but not the only country with "United States". So if you want a shorter form than "Citizen of the US", it makes more sense to say "American" than "United Statesian".

  • 205. Bob  |  February 22, 2010 at 9:18 am

    Dave, it's like I'm trying to explain to Linda, fortunately, here in Canada, we have been successfull, at keeping Church and State seperate, so that of course is a great benefit to anyone who is not religious, or for those who are progessives, they don't have to deal with it.
    For people like myself, my civil union is reckognized as equal under the law. But my immediate family, and the Church I was born into, does not accept it.
    And as straight grandmother who has been sharing will know, that is the same for her family in the states, definetly her children did not have their SSM preformed in the Lutheran Church, so my question is how does she justify that as accepting.
    For most people unaffected by religion, yes this is a non issue in Canada, and we're happy about that. At least we got that part right. But then again we accepted the civil union designation as opposed to marriage, which I think they are actually fighting for in prop 8, (is that right), So I admire the U.S. for that.
    In the U.S. the religious right is much more entrenched in politics, and actually use their clout to control things, Have you read the book The Family, it's quite an eye opener. And shows to what extent fundamentalists control the country. The Family an orignization of fundamentalists who are politicians, are responsible for the law imposing the death penalty for gays in Uganda, the president of Uganda is a member ,

    To sum it up, my gay friends think I'm a fool for making an issue with religion, after all, I did leave my family and all that to party and dance and celibrate my sexuality, the whole while Harvey Milk was fighting for us politically. I'm married, what should I care. But in my old age I realize not confronting family and church is a cop out, on the bright side there have been a lot of people fighting inside their churches, and the issue is on the burner there.

    And a street ministry in Calgary actually lost it's tax exempt status because it was anti gay in it's stance with poor helpless people who would do anything, and agree to anything for a bed and some food. That's encouraging.

    I think we're past a hudge hurdle, the legal aspect has been decided, but for some of us a separate designation is not equal.

  • 206. Mykelb  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:17 am

    Screw the religious and their buybulls. I don't have to put up with their crap under the U.S. Constitution.

  • 207. eDee  |  February 23, 2010 at 4:08 am

    "National Organization for Marriage — opposite-sex marriage"

    Thank you for clarifying. The name implies they support marriage for all.
    Its just my opinion, but I'd think they would want the name of their organization to express how they feel. If I was looking for a good Christian hate group I would pass them over thinking they were for same-gender marriage.

  • 208. Straight Grandmother  |  February 23, 2010 at 6:38 am

    Minnesota is having hearing on legalizing same sex marriage, and recognizing marriages performed in different states. Some outrageous statements are being made. Here is one of them

    "Same sex unions are not based on complimentarity between a man and a woman," said Catholic priest Father Michael Becker. "They do not cooperate with God and plan for new life. They do not actually achieve a conjugal union. There's no way for one in a homosexual act to give themselves completely and be received simultaneously."

    Why is it people are so focused on the sexual activites of others and not at all interested on LOVE? I don't really care how people love, it doesn't really matter to me. What matters is that 2 people love each other.
    http://wcco.com/local/minnesota.gay.marriage.2.15

    And this OUTRAGEOUS Black woman who is trying to get elected. read what she says-
    http://minnesotaindependent.com/55645/barb-davis-

  • 209. Ronnie  |  February 23, 2010 at 6:56 am

    That uneducated skank says that the majority of the world that is HIV/AIDS is homosexual…………..doink……other way around FOOL!!!!!!……<3…Ronnie

  • 210. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 10:55 am

    Kirill, it is not just gay men who like to take relaxing baths. My straight, but not narrow-minded, broter is a long distance trucker and when he is home, will soak in the tub until the water begins to get tepid, then refill the tube with hot water again. All of us enjoy pampering ourselves, and when muscles are sore, we reallly like to relax in a good warm bath. It is human nature.♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

    PS I will respond to your email shortly, after I get done here and refresh my email page.

  • 211. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:05 am

    @kirilleXXI. Don't be too sure that Bill Clinton is NOt gay. After all, I was at one of his rallies in Wiston-Salem, NC, when he stated that if elected president, he would have no problem with gay men coming to the White House to take a shower with him. Either he is bisexual, or he is very comfortable in his own skin.

  • 212. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:27 am

    Linda, I want to add this to what straight Grandmother has said. I too have found that those who are truly conservative Christians are mainly conservative when it come to passing judgment upon others. They are the ones who are most accepting of those who are different from them, because they feel that a variety of people in their lives opens them to unique and wonderful experiences that they would otherwise be denied. My grandmother was such a conservative Christian. And her son, my uncle G. Allen, was gay. My grandmother loved him the same as she loved all her other children, and she actually told me one time that she felt blessed to have had at least one child who was born gay because she found that she learned even more about love from him that she would have had he been born straight. And she was the one who used the term born gay. And I think she knew about me without me telling her. I remember her telling me that he hoped my uncle would find a good man who would treat him well so that he wold be happy, and I had t let her know that he was already happy becaue he was able to be there and help her get where she needed to go. So, I agree with Straight Grandmother. Yu will know when the time is right, and the right way to approach it, but give your parents a chance. And thank you for being here.♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
    Richard

  • 213. Ed-M  |  February 24, 2010 at 6:46 pm

    "There’s no way for one in a homosexual act to give themselves completely and be received simultaneously"

    BLIND! He has obviously never had a committed relationship. All those years of celibacy and drinking church kool-aid makes one completely ignorant in matters of love and the affairs of the heart! As Ronnie would say… FOOL!!!!!!

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