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Trial Reenactment: Day 2 Episode 5


By Julia Rosen

The last episode from Day 2 of the trial from is up and ready for your views.

Please do use this as an open thread to chatter amongst yourselves.


  • 1. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Please do use this as an open thread to chatter amongst yourselves.

    We all seem to be doing a good job of that thanks to all your at P8TT, CC, et al. THNX!!

  • 2. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:33 am

    can't wait to hear what happens on Friday..maybe we will get our closing argument date…..

  • 3. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Dear P8TT,

    Can you give us an option to subscribe to "comments via email" on your posts without necessarily leaving comments by ourselves and checking the checkbox "Notify me of follow-up comments via email"? It would be nice to see a link instead, at least for those who are logged in on


  • 4. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Julia, earlier this evening I had my training withAnthony Ash of Courage Campaign where he showed me the leadership models that are ineffective, and the very effective "snowflake" model that is used with Courage Campaign Initiative and the Equality Teams. For such a brief training session, it was so informative and inspirational to me, and strengthens my desire to help grow the Courage Campaign Equality Team network here on the East Coast. This is a wonderful family I have become a part of, and this training I am now getting as your first official NETO outside of California is srengthening me for the upcoming work we have ahead of us here in North Carolina. I am still working on my own personal story and how to present it to those I ask to be part of the Cumberland County, North Carolina Equality Team, so that I get the point across an encourage them without seeming to be a windbag, but I am confident that the training Courage Campaign has put in place will make that possible. I am truly roud to be associated with everyone here in the fight for full equality for ALL citizens of this country. Let's get out there and grow this thing!

  • 5. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Drat! forgot to hit the subscribe button again!

  • 6. Straight Grandmother  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:47 am

    //Please do use this as an open thread to chatter amongst yourselves//
    Oh my gosh I am sure you mean me. I'm sorry if I have not been posting appropriatly. It is kind of boring while we wait for more trial action to happen. I'll try and styay more on topic, again sorry, I am sure I am an offender.

  • 7. Ronnie  |  February 23, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    chatter chatter chatter chatter…..hehehe….Chatter dopty-daddy? I'm thinking of starting something here in NJ too…I have one gown I'm working on..and I'm meeting with another client next week about her prom dress…so I'm once I have schedules mapped out…I'm gonna look into starting something…..chatter Straight Grandmother? So I'm boring you….hurrumph!!!!…..I'm just joshing you……chatter dieter?…..I can't wait for Friday either…even though it's just another day to start a new countdown to closing arguments……chatter R. Fitch?….I concur…thanks P8TT…..chatter K!r!lleXXI?……Hi……<3…Ronnie

  • 8. Bob  |  February 23, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    What an informative history lesson, how well I remember Anita Bryant, the orange juice lady, wonder what happened to her.
    How does it happen that all these anti-discrimination laws have wound up being overturned?????
    We thought Anita was gone, but the fear and misinformation lingers, sounds like we may need to take to the streets again, remember the marches they talked about here.
    Maybe we have to get off our butts and stand up.

  • 9. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Staight Grandmother, you may think you get off topic when you post, but you always manage to share your experiences as one of our beloved allies, and that is always ON topic. I do not know if you are on Facebook, but if you are please look me up. Once we friend each other on FB, it will mean that you will also get to enjoy our wedding pictures when we take our trip to PA and CT in June. And I want all of my P8TT family to see those pictures, as all of you have contributed to increasing my desire to celebrate this marriage in public wth all my friends and family around me. I know that most o you will not be able to be there physically, so the FB link will be the best way fro me to share our joy with you. And when we have our Jewish wedding in NC, I will post those pictures also. Please don't apoligize for speaking your heart when you post. That is why this site exists. ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  • 10. Ronnie  |  February 23, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    "Out of the bars and into the streets!!!!……Anita Bryant is coming for you!!!"….who is their AB now?….Haggie Gagmealert(i mean Maggie Gallagher) not a celebrity so thats moot…..Carrie Prejack(i mean Prejean)?….Don't hold your breath…..Sarah Falin(i mean Palin)?….right….yeah ok…pift!……<3…Ronnie

  • 11. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Democrats in West Virginia’s house of delegates Tuesday shot down an attempt by Republicans to advance a proposed amendment to the state constitution banning same-sex marriage.

    GOP delegates were unsuccessful in trying to force a floor vote on the Marriage Protection Amendment.

  • 12. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Dieter, West Virginia is where I grew up! Only 14 miles wsw of the very building that vote was held in. Can you email me a link to this news, or post it here on the Trial Tracker! I have to see this to believe it, as backward as they were while I was growing up and even as recently as 20 years ago when I moved to NC. Please, dieter, more information! ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  • 13. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    Here you go:
    Link to the story.
    when you get on the page you will see several stories..its about the third one

  • 14. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 1:49 pm
    the link may help:

  • 15. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    When I worked at Micky's bar in weho many years ago when they were trying to pass some other anti gay law I think it was AB101…I remember thousands of people marching down santa monica blvd..past my bar, and the marchers started banging on the windows screaming "out of the bars..into the streets"…
    after awhile my boss could tell I was bothered by something and she asked if the marchers were scaring me..I told her NO…but that I thought I should be marching with them!!..She looked at me and said well GO MARCH!!..We can cover you for a few hours….
    coolest boss ever!!

  • 16. Ronnie  |  February 23, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    I know that A&F has this bad rap for being racist and everything….but it really isn't…..It's about the way you dress, act, your personality and they way you carry yourself….the hiring process is the same as casting for the real world….I got offered to go to a group interview when I worked at Godiva and Avalon in NYC….Avalon is a Gay and Straight club and one night I was drunk and wound up dancing on the cubes in the Hip-Hop room lounge area….the manage at the A&F in the mall that I worked at recognized me from Godiva and said dude you should come in for interview….that week I was hired….at my interview there was 5 other people….this tall white surfer looking guy, and asian girl that looked like a model, a haitian guy that was wearing threads, jeans and a t-shirt, an AA guy wearing timbs, kakis, and a fitted, and a blond chick wearing all A&F….(I was wearing threads, jeans, and a woven)…we all got hired except the guy wearing the timbs didn't….enough said…..and A&F is totally Gay friendly….all of my managers were cool…2 of them were Gay and 1 was a Lesbian….There 50 Gay guys not including me, 24 Lesbians, and 14 bisexuals, and one Trans working at my store alone…..Oh I miss working there…<3…Ronnie

  • 17. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    LOL…you see..if you look hard enough you can find something in EVERYONE'S closet: enjoy:

    The man who cited natural law in an off-script anti-gay rant at CPAC has had two run-ins with the real law in the past decade, including a restraining order for domestic violence, according to court records in California.

    Ryan Sorba of California Young Americans for Freedom, who is a longtime anti-gay activist, in 2001 had a restraining order brought against him by a woman in a San Bernardino County domestic violence case, according to case records.

    A three-year restraining order granted by the court barred Sorba from any contact with the woman, Mary Paulson, and his brother Michael Sorba. He was also ordered to move out of the "family dwelling" in Highland, a small city outside San Bernardino, according to records. Sorba was 19 at the time and did not appear in court for any of the proceedings.

    In an interview with TPMmuckraker this morning, Sorba declined to provide a detailed account of what happened, but dismissed the matter as "the stupidest thing you could ever imagine."

    In 2008, Sorba pleaded guilty to a noise violation for a disturbance at a polling place on election day. He told TPMmuckraker that he was handing out pro-Prop 8 flyers when "some homosexual guy came up and I guess he called the police and they gave me a ticket."

    Asked how he knew the man was gay, Sorba said "because he looked gay, he sounded gay — it was evident."

    "I'm proud of that ticket. I look at that ticket as if it's a trophy," he said.

    Introduced as a young conservative who would discuss James O'Keefe's undercover ACORN sting in San Bernardino, Sorba got up and condemned CPAC to jeers from the audience.

    "Civil rights are grounded in natural rights, natural rights are grounded in human nature, human nature is a rational substance in relationship, the intelligible end of the reproductive act is reproduction," Sorba said. "Do you understand that? Civil rights, when they conflict with natural rights, are contrary."

    Here's the video of Sorba at CPAC:

  • 18. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    Thanks, dieter. And now, because of you, not only did I get som good news about the state I grew up in, but I am also entered in a drawing for an 8Gb iPod Touch. Wonder if it will have a rainbow flagskin on it? I hope so. That would just be TOO COOL!

  • 19. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    LOL!!! Hope ya win…and here is some more good news possibly:

    Just got this from one of the friends of GMW:

    "I want to share with you that on March, 23rd. the Italian Constitutional Court will issue an opinion on gay marriage, responding to inquiries made by four lower courts."

    Here's a little background from an article on the site:

    Is the Italian Civil Code unconstitutional in indirectly limiting marriage to opposite sex couples? This is the question put forward to the Constitutional Court by the Tribunal of Venice. A same-sex couple lodged a complaint against the refusal of the mayor to proceed with the publication of the notice of marriage, the first step in order to enter civil marriage in Italy. The two men argued that the Civil code does not explicitly define marriage as a union between a man and a woman nor does it include sameness of sex in the list of hindrances. In any case, if such obstacle were to exist, then it would collide with the Constitution and the fundamental freedoms set forth therein.

    In April 2009 the three-judge panel found that even though no explicit limit exists, a systematic approach to the Civil code rooted on provisions like those that refer to wife and husband for the exchange of vows lead inevitably to such conclusion. Nevertheless, some articles of the 1948 Constitution appear to undermine the legitimacy of these provisions of the 1942 Civil code. The judges referred to article 2, which protects "inviolable human rights" and social groups like family, to art. 3's prohibition of discrimination on grounds of personal conditions, to art. 29 on the recognition of marriage, as well as to art. 107, which binds Italy to respect international obligations (ECHR, EU law, etc.).

    Fingers crossed, everyone!

  • 20. Felyx  |  February 23, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    Funny story, I have letters that were written to AB during her who fiasco. My aunt worked as a volunteer to separate the letters and answer them. She gave many of them to my Grandmother who preserved them for posterity. They are quite interesting….actually they are boring, they are exactly what you would expect to see today…but they are interesting in the fact that after umpty-so-many years people are saying the exact same things!

    BTW Funny VAGINA story on Ooh … Prejean about 25 or so comments down. Write back…I have never told this story and I am wondering if other will find it as funny….I am still laughing like a hyena five years later!


  • 21. jimig  |  February 23, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    Guess What!
    I am the proud son of a Lesbian couple.

    My mother is my hero and the kindest person I have ever meet she does everything to support her family and is the greatest Grandmother in the world her partner is my other hero she is the smartest person I have ever meet and I love her so much.

    My mother was raised catholic and her family disowened her when she left my father for a women. Her partner is the daughter of a baptist preacher and she was disowened when she jioned my mother. Here is the kicker when I went into ministry they still loved me and supported me because thats what loving parents do. Funny part is I left the ministry because I knew they (church leaders) could never truely except or love me.

    Thank all of you who are trying and fighting hard to support my family, my parents, my sister and my children.

  • 22. Felyx  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    Seen just now on Yahoo news…

    Mystery of single-sex species solved

    How female-only species survive without genetic variation has long baffled biologists. Lizards' trick

    I thought this would be immensely important to the whole gay debate thing.

    Your welcome,

    Bringin' you only the latest and most important news!

  • 23. Felyx  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    One hell of a quote from the article above!!!

    “…nature often surprises us.” he said. “We think we know how something works, then find out that nature came up with many ways of doing it.” -Peter Baumann, a University of Kansas

    You said it brother!!!

  • 24. Ronnie  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    Thanks Felyx you learn something new every day…from this statement this is what conclusion I came to:

    “I think it’s going to be widespread, but nature often surprises us” he said. “We think we know how something works, then find out that nature came up with many ways of doing it.”

    That is what humans have done…with the help of in-vitro fertilization and Surrogacy….Now Gay and Lesbians can reproduce with out the act of intercourse….<3…Ronnie

  • 25. Felyx  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    So true Ronnie….so true. Good night. TTYTomorrow <3 Fe

  • 26. Ronnie  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Goodnight TTY 2morro…<3…Ronnie

  • 27. PDXAndrew  |  February 23, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    No, thank YOU for standing up for your parents and helping spread the TRUTH to destroy the haters' bag o' lies.


  • 28. dieter  |  February 23, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    February 24, 2010

    Good news:

    Charges against three men accused of beating up a gay Rogers Park man were upgraded to felony hate crimes Tuesday. Sean Little, Benjamin Eder and Kevin McAndrew beat Daniel Hauff, 33, while he was riding the CTA Red Line train Jan. 10, officials said.

    Bad news:

    NYC Dampens Pride to Save Dough.
    There will be a quarter less Pride in New York City this summer. The NYPD on Tuesday ordered that organizers of all parades in the city—including the annual Pride parade—cut their routes by 25% and keep their events under five hours, the Daily News reports.

  • 29. Felyx  |  February 23, 2010 at 11:23 pm


    Ho amici italiani. Keep us posted. Nothing like gay marriage to surround the Vatican to put the Pope in a tizzy!!

    Serves him right…he should feel surrounded!


  • 30. Felyx  |  February 24, 2010 at 12:16 am

    Attention P8TTers,

    For all the diehard P8TT enthusiasts…we need a new shirt for us all…

    I suggest…..(wait for it)….


    Hehehehehehehehehehehehe!!! Gotta love it. <3 Felyx

  • 31. Ronnie  |  February 24, 2010 at 12:22 am

    Good morning trackers….dieter…that is goos news about those charges…..but the Pride Parade isn't bad news….All of that weeks events are still ago….the festival and most likely the Fire works will still happen…..The Grand Marshals are Lt. Dan Choi and The Fabulous Judy Shepard…talk about making a statement…..Just because the shortened the parade doesn't mean that there are going to be any less people there….last years estimate was
    over 500,000 people…..Like i said hoe do the Hateros expect to shut that many people up?…..and thats only one city….The Hateros are FOOLS!!!!……<3…Ronnie

  • 32. Ronnie  |  February 24, 2010 at 12:35 am

    I love this video….quick history lesson:

  • 33. fiona64  |  February 24, 2010 at 1:11 am

    Last year, during the San Jose Pride Parade, a group of people stood on the sidewalk holding their "Yes on 8" signs and chanting "Shame, shame" at every group that passed. I was not there, but this was reported by the local MCC congregation where I participate. My wonderful pastor said he found himself laughing out loud at the whole thing … such a joyous event, and these solemn, self-appointed Elect were standing on the sidewalk with dour expressions and trying to make a *church group* feel bad.

    I may just walk with MCC this year; we'll see.


  • 34. PDXAndrew  |  February 24, 2010 at 2:36 am

    Yes, your speed dial to the VA hospital's Dr. GINA yas funny.
    I have a friend who has a similar problem with the clinical term for specific male and female body parts. To him, the words are the epitome of vulgar. Conversely, the crude slang frequently used in non-polite company is perfectly fine… Go figure.

  • 35. Felyx  |  February 24, 2010 at 2:45 am

    So glad you liked it….it is just one of those stories you just can't make up!!! LOL <3 Felyx

  • 36. Straight Grandmother  |  February 24, 2010 at 3:37 am

    SAVE those letters. They are a part of history. When my grandchildren grow up thier world will be completely different than my world and their parents world. One day you will find the appropriate place to gift the letters. Just as AA have the Black Holocost museum in Milwaukee one day there will be a LGBT museum somewhere to show future generations what used to be. Save and protect those letters, they ahve historical value.

  • 37. Straight Grandmother  |  February 24, 2010 at 3:42 am

    Thank you Richard and when my life calms down a bit (it is a very busy time on our farm in Provence) I will look you up on Facebook. I would LOVE to see your wedding pics. I am very worried about staying on topic though. I am worried that I am not posting appropriatly and that is why they said we should not chatter. I don't want to do the wrong thing here.

  • 38. Felyx  |  February 24, 2010 at 3:44 am

    I intend to. They are still readable but they have been through several hurricanes. I hope I am not the only one. But thank you and thank my grandmother from caring so long ago! Love, Felyx.

  • 39. Straight Grandmother  |  February 24, 2010 at 3:49 am

    jimig, just curious are you male or female? We are cautioned to stay on topic and not chatter so I am kind of afraid to ask since it is not directly realted to the topic. Perhaps you can answer briefly and we won't get in trouble. Out of everyone here YOU mean the msot to me, YOU. You are living proof that you can be raised by Lesbians and still turn out okay. My grandchildren are being raised by lesbians so I am always viatally interested whenever you post. You turned out okay, right?

  • 40. Frijondi  |  February 24, 2010 at 3:56 am

    Morning, fellow trackers.

    Has anyone heard whether a date has been set for the closing arguments yet?

  • 41. Felyx  |  February 24, 2010 at 4:37 am

    We may have to wait for Friday for that one. <3 Fe

  • 42. dieter  |  February 24, 2010 at 5:55 am


    Effective immediately, Maryland Attorney General Douglas F. Gansler (D) has announced that Maryland will be recognizing same-sex marriages performed in other states.

    Gansler ordered state agencies to begin giving gay couples the rights they have been awarded in states where same-sex marriage is legal.

  • 43. Bob  |  February 24, 2010 at 9:07 am

    straight grandmother, you are so supportive, your presence is reasurring, on this site, your sharing your experience on earlier threads, was beneficial to me, so please could you answer the final question, do you still attend and support the Church which does not allow your gay grandchildren to marry there, or take communion. How have you reconciled that, I don't think this question is off topic, it's right on base about wether civil unions are acceptable, and then how are these acknowledged in families of the religious right. Does it lead you to question your churches stance. Are you familiar with Mel White, and, and his fight for his son in the Evangelical Lutheran Church????

  • 44. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 24, 2010 at 10:08 am

    Now that's a twist!
    Let's hope no one comes to overturn this.

  • 45. Bob  |  February 24, 2010 at 11:37 am

    straight grandmother, thanks for answering this question on the other site, your children should be proud,

  • 46. jimig  |  February 24, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    I am Male, Married with two children, I have two sisters both married one with two children one with one child. All three of us are involved in community service, activities, coaching and we all support LGBT.

    Each of us has had the benifit of sending our Children to spend lots time with our grandmothers.

    I have to tell you my oldest son is 9 we send him to a Christian school (long story). He asked me why we don't go to church anymore, I explained that because of the prop 8 vote and the churches opposing SSM it was hard for me to sit and listen that it took away the beauty of worship. His response was amazing he simply said all God wants from us is to be with the one we love Jesus doesn't care as long as we love the person we are with. If I had died that night I would have died a happy proud parent.

    Straight Grandmother the best thing you can do is continue to love and teach love. My mother and father clearly got divorsed i was very blessed that my father an air force officer always respected my mother and never in my presence spoke poorly about her or said anything about her being a Lesbian. I was very fortunate to have a loving Lesbian mother and a strieght millitary father whose primary concern was to love me.

    I should add just to claify, I was conceived the first time my mother had sex (back of a chevy, it's just to funny) ( she has only been with one man) not sure she was ever was into men.

    As far as did I turn out right, I guess my family is still waiting to see (haha). Ya I did but we had a few bumps (like many teens I went into the tunnel but most kids do, mine handled it well). I was again very blessed that many around me supported my mothers. They had a strong network of friends and my mothers friends are mine and she is my number one supporter.

  • 47. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 24, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    Felyx, the Pope already feels surrounded, if not punctured! After all, he lives in the largest gay brothel in the world. It just isn't advertised as such, LOL!♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  • 48. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 24, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    Jimig, it is stories like yours that have given me the strength to increase my activism. I want my grandchildren to grow up in a time when equality for all is not just a pretty phrase on paper, but the truth. That is why I am so willing to stand up for you, your moms, your entire family. You see, you are part of MY family now, and families that are true families stick together, fight together, and win together.

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