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It’s not about the sex

Community/Meta Right-wing

(Linda Liles, a Prop 8 Trial Tracker participant and community member, is on a roll. First, she wrote this heartfelt guest post about coming out to her mother. Then she followed it up with this compelling piece about the role of guilt in the social construction of discrimination against LGBT people. But this post could be her best yet. Enjoy. — Eden)

By Linda Liles

It’s not about the sex.

Well okay….it’s not just about the sex.

It’s certainly not only about the sex. But that’s all those who oppose us can think about.

They find out you’re gay and then they give you that look, and you just know they’re thinking about the sex.

I have to say, I find it amusing that they think they know what goes on in our bedrooms; and what’s even more hilarious is they think we don’t know what goes on in theirs.

But what really takes the cake is how similar our bedroom antics are.

The fact is, sex is as important in a same sex relationship as it is in an opposite sex relationship. It’s not more important; it’s not the only thing of importance; it’s just important.

But it’s not what makes us LGB or T.

That’s what they don’t get.

I have a very good friend who I have known for over 20 years. She was the first person I came out to; and though she wasn’t really surprised, and she’s very supportive, she just can’t quite understand it. She loves men! And to feel the same way about women is just inconceivable to her.

And the funny thing is I can understand that completely. Because I feel exactly the same way, only in reverse. Fortunately, my friend is willing to believe me when I tell her that, and we just laugh about it.

The problem is when they don’t believe you.

Those people are the ones who argue with you, like it’s something to be negotiated; they point out the harmful aspects of your ‘chosen lifestyle’; they tell you to ignore it.

They get angry with you. They turn their backs on you. They damn you.

They try to cure you.

Or they just look at you; and you can tell that they really are trying to be open-minded about it, but they just can’t comprehend it.

And those are the ones worth talking to.

So this is for those who can’t understand us, but are willing to try.

We feel the same way about our significant other as you feel about yours. That hum you feel whenever you’re around them…? We feel that way, too. That breathlessness when you look into their eyes…? Same here. That underlying joy you feel that is a constant no matter how crappy your day is…? Yep, we’ve got that, too. That desire to commit the rest of your life to that person? That feeling of finally being home when you’re with that person? That consuming love you feel for that person that exceeds anything you’ve ever felt for anyone else? That describes our feelings perfectly.

That willingness to spend months, even years apart while remaining faithful; that willingness to risk being rejected by your family; that willingness to face public ridicule and shame…? Well, I suppose that’s where we’re different.

Our love is just as intense, just as lasting, and just as dedicated as yours. And we want our commitment to be just as binding, just as permanent and just as celebrated as yours.

We are just like you.


  • 1. Ann S.  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:30 am

    'scribing and running — got to catch the ferry.

  • 2. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Oh definitely! That emptiness that you hate, and yet you love, because it represents the bond you have.

    You're right, Richard; that should definitely be added!

  • 3. bonobo  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:39 am

    Excellent. Reminds me, sort of, of that old poem, "Old Dyke". Not really the same message, but the same… well, maybe not.

    Either way, this is a keeper.


  • 4. AndrewPDX  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Awesome post, Linda! WTG and Standing O!

    Now, as the hopeless romantic that I am, I can't wait until I get to feel that way about someone :)

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 5. Sagesse  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:47 am

    There has to be an official mental disorder for being obsessed with sexuality, especially other people's, and frantically needing to control it.

    The state has an interest in responsible procreation… get out of my life.

  • 6. Jennifer Gail  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Some time ago I wrote a sonnet that tries to capture some of what you are saying here —

    Love's subtle joys

    Here silence sits, a comfort rare and deep
    Where thoughts each other know and oft do share,
    Familiar forms do touch and warm may sleep
    In joint desire; sweet and solemn care
    That thus enfolds to cherish and delight!
    Such little things, bread and butter charms:
    The glance of quiet laughter, quick and bright,
    The step so glad and swift toward open arms.
    'Tis gracious strength, joy unremarked that brings
    To eyes a deeper hue, and solace sure
    That makes of simple gifts the richest things,
    Where storms and ecstasies do not endure.
    But Love's most sure and subtle joy is this:
    To greater grow in sorrow and in bliss.

    Jennifer Gail
    18 Aug 1997

    *Crosses fingers that the formatting isn't too messed up*

  • 7. Stormy  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:58 am

    "Have you tried *NOT* being a slayer?"


    Another fab piece, Linda. Thank you.

  • 8. mandy  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:02 am

    wait sex isn't the only thing of importance in a relationship. Umm whoops :)

    I would also add that I assume that the relationships are the same in that they are also not easy. You fight you kiss and make up, you try to communicate, you hate the way they leave their socks on the floor. Or how the shirt can never make the hamper. The way they can drive you absolutely crazy one moment and be completely perfect the next moment.

  • 9. Tony Sidaway  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:02 am

    Well said, Linda. The train is rolling and it's bound for freedom and equality. The unkind words and thoughts are still there but they're dying, generation by generation. As Mildred Loving of the famous civil rights case Loving v. Virginia said, passing the torch to the marriage equality movement shortly before her death: "I support the freedom of marriage for all. That's what love, and Loving, is all about."

  • 10. Ray in MA  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:04 am

    Linda, well put.

    I saw this, as well when I came out…when straight couples announce their togetherness, everyone says "awwwww, aint that nice".

    When a gay couple does the same, it's a whole different ball of wax… their first thoughts are images of gay sex, not the happiness that a relationship brings.

    If this isn't a perversion, I don't know what is.

  • 11. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:05 am

    Yes Richard – I agree. I was married for over 20 years to a wonderful person who happened to be opposite sex. I worked long hours to provide for my family…justifying the hours as sacrifice for "them", working nights and sleeping alone during the day….again, my justification was necessary to provide for family. I was really hiding from myself, trying to cope with who I really was inside…in my heart I really doubted that the romance portrayed in the movies really existed.

    Now, several years divorced and living with partner of 3 years…the VERY first thing we decided upon that I give up the night shift immediately so I can spend every night with my dear soon-to-be husband. Many nights we are cuddled together embraced as if we would never have such a chance again. Some nights we are on opposite sides of the bed with an occasion toe touch or brush of the hand to make sure all is well.

    Where once I dreaded the awkward bedtime, now I look forward to this nightly celebration as a chance to connect with my dear partner, to remind me all is well in the world and true love REALLY DOES EXITS for me :)

  • 12. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Mandy, have you ever been to my house in Hope Mills, NC? LOL You just described a typical day at our house. Just add a cocker spaniel, a beagle, and a poodle to the mix.

  • 13. bonobo  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:16 am

    On the off chance some of you might be looking for the poem I made note of, it's no longer on-line, and although I was wrong about my "it reminds me of" comment, I'll copy it here so no one pulls their hair out.

    Old Dyke

    Old Dyke
    I see you everyday
    Sitting on the bus
    Proud in your blue jeans,
    And T-shirts,
    Your worn out work boots.
    And I yearn to sit next to you
    To share a friendly word,
    But what would I say
    That you've not heard before?
    What can we possibly have in common?
    Should I say that I'm a dyke, too?
    It doesn't seem right.
    I haven't won the badge of honor,
    I was born to the right.
    The right that you,
    And others like you,
    Have won for me.

    How times have changed
    When I came out
    I told my parents
    When you came out,
    You told the others in the bar.
    I was a twinkle in Papa's eye
    The time you ran through the night
    Ran from another raid on the bar.
    Ran, to fight another day, another way.
    Mother was changing my diapers
    The night you said no more,
    And stood your ground.
    You lost some friends,
    You lost some family,
    But you never lost your pride.

    You lived in the time of
    Short hair, dark sunglasses,
    Pinky rings and pompadours.
    Secret signs, all of them.
    You lived the times of
    Hidden bars, hushed voices
    And stolen moments.
    You lived a life of ridicule
    And yet held your head high.
    Support was found among friends
    When found at all.

    You knew the chances you took
    If your secret was found out.
    Chances of turned backs
    Lost jobs and mental institutions.
    Mothers watched closely
    As you played with their children.
    And men flexed their muscles and sneered.
    It wasn't safe to walk the streets at night.

    Because of you, and others like you,
    Times have changed.
    Because you stood your ground.
    Because you said: I have the right.
    Because you lived through it all,
    I live today in peace.
    The next time I see you on that bus
    Remind me to say thank you
    For I have reaped the benefits
    Of your sufferings.

    – Anne UnNown –

  • 14. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:16 am

    ps. – I'm at work away from my hubby….during separation I have a constant ache of loneliness in my stomach…counting the minutes to be re-united! BTW, re-united often means animated discussions some may interpret as arguing as life stress and inequality threatens to tear us apart…also re-united often is my dear hubby coming around the corner to greet me with a smile, a heartfelt hug and a tender kiss because he heard me opening the door.

  • 15. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:18 am

    I hope life brings you all you desire Andrew PDX :)

  • 16. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:19 am

    what a dear sonnet! Thank you for posting it Jennifer :)

  • 17. bonobo  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:21 am

    I have no idea what I was thinking. I must be having some sort of brain drain at the time.

    Linda, again, your peice is excellent. Thank you.


  • 18. mandy  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:22 am

    wow that is beautiful!

  • 19. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:23 am

    LOL Richard! I used to have 3 dogs and 2 cats and 4 kids…and neighbor kids running around a big house with a bigger yard/garden. Keeping up with one partner and part-time kids seems like a breeze after that!

    Yes, Mandy it is often NOT easy…but the kissing and making up is something I ALWAYS look forward to! Reminds me how precious and fragile love can be.

    I love those counter protest signs that say "Gay Agenda: do laundry, pick up the kids, make dinner….." so true!

  • 20. AndrewPDX  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:24 am

    WOW! that is beautiful!!!

    Thank you for gracing us with your wonderful sonnet.

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 21. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:24 am


  • 22. Tomato  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:25 am

    "in my heart I really doubted that the romance portrayed in the movies really existed."

    I remember that feeling! Maybe that's the feeling Maggie Gallagher-not-Srivastav-no-wedding-ring is crushed by. Maybe that's why she has to tear us down; so she can feel better, so she can pretend everyone is as miserable as she, so she can pretend that actually her life isn't empty.

  • 23. mandy  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:32 am

    “Gay Agenda: do laundry, pick up the kids, make dinner…..”

    I agree I love that sign. I wonder if there is a bumper sticker out there that says that. I would love to share that with the world

  • 24. Sean  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:34 am

    Exactly what I've been trying to tell people all these years. Kudos, Ms. Linda, for putting it in words more eloquent than I ever could!

  • 25. matthew  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:36 am

    The only thing I would do is edit out the B part where you say 'But its not what makes us LG(B) or T"

    Bi people always talk about their sexuality in terms of the sex that they have. The vast majority dont talk about emotional attachment like gays and lesbians. How many times have we seen the same conversation on these forums. People who are 'bi' talking about how their sexuality is so fluid and how most gay guys are really just bi people because they slept with women back when they were in the closet, for example.

    /rant off

  • 26. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Great idea! A bumper sticker :) the HRC has been a little controversial and rainbow flag pretty undefined but "do laundry, etc." speaks to me!

  • 27. nightshayde  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:53 am

    Well — they really want you to not have sex if you can't get married…. and if you don't have sex, you won't "really" be gay. Isn't that what being "ex-gay" is all about? We all know they don't stop being gay — they just stop having sex with same-sex partners and say they're "cured."

  • 28. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:55 am

    That, I can do! I will go to WalMart tomorrow and get the sticker maker. They have one I can get that will turn anything up to 5" in width into a sticker. And I can set the Word art up so that each word is a different color. I'll be back in a few with an email addy.

  • 29. Kathleen  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:56 am


  • 30. nightshayde  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:57 am

    The father of one of my best friends is gay. If he hadn't lived the lie for as long as he did, I wouldn't have her in my life & my daughter wouldn't have her favorite Auntie. Of course we wouldn't know the difference if she had never existed — but I'm sure glad she's here.

    I'm also glad that her father was able to stop living his lie & embrace who he really is.

    I suppose that we'd all go a little (more) nutso if we didn't have silver linings to some of life's most troubling situations.

  • 31. Adam G.  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:57 am

    You've captured it perfectly.

  • 32. RebeccaRGB  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Since everybody is posting poetry here, a haiku I came up with today:

    Some people are gay
    Because God made them that way
    It's normal, so deal

  • 33. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Whoa! that's like a punch in the stomach…just you mentioning 'ex-gay' brings feelings of shame and failure of my years spent in the Mormon ex-gay ministry called "Evergreen" I don't know anyone who actually was cured…and the one person who claimed to be "cured" was a frequent guest speaker at our Evergreen meetings to inspire us…he ended up in prison soon after for molesting children.

  • 34. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Thanks nightshade :)

  • 35. rosebud  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Lovely post. I have a slight problem with the wording here though:
    "that willingness to risk being rejected by your family; that willingness to face public ridicule and shame…? Well, I suppose that’s where we’re different."

    Heterosexual couples are fortunate to usually not have to face the rejection and ridicule you speak of, but it doesn't make them unwilling to face it. Love is Love. When I find that person that makes me feel all the ways described in this post, it won't matter what others think of it. I'd face family or public rejection to be with them if it came to that. It's still the same. But again, lovely post.

  • 36. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Okay folks. If you want me to do one of the bumper stickers for you, email me at beryl1963 at rocketmail dot com. Once you do that, I can get with you through my real email and we can set things up for the bumper stickers.

  • 37. AndrewPDX  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    Hehe! That's cute :)

    Me, I'm horrid at poetry…
    <cite>There once was a woman from Venus
    Whose body was shaped like a ….</cite>

    Wait… that's from a Star Trek: the Next Generation episode — and 50 bonus points to the Trekkie who can name the episode :)

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 38. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    Yes!!! She should get that exactly! ha!

  • 39. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:18 pm


    "The way they can drive you absolutely crazy one moment and be completely perfect the next moment."

    I admit to being so hopelessly in love that she can drive me crazy while being completely perfect!


  • 40. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:19 pm


    That's one of the hard things isn't it? It kind of takes the fun out of telling folks.

  • 41. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    You are right, of course.

    I didn't mean to come across as offensive; I think I was pointing out the contrast between what we deal with almost without exception compared to what our counterparts might deal with rarely.

    You are right, though; I could have phrased it better.
    Mea culpa

  • 42. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:24 pm


    That's the great lie, I think. That we aren't GLBT unless we're engaging in 'that sort of sex'.

    That's why it is important to me that they understand that the sex act is not what defines us.

  • 43. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    Oops, I responded to Rosebud's comment here.

    Matthew–I disagree; the Bi's that I know (and my girlfriend is one) is not the way you described at all.

  • 44. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    I put this in the wrong thread (above).

    You are right, of course.

    I didn’t mean to come across as offensive; I think I was pointing out the contrast between what we deal with almost without exception compared to what our counterparts might deal with rarely.

    You are right, though; I could have phrased it better.
    Mea culpa

  • 45. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    not really a true Trekkie but watched every episode of TNG at least 2 times….that would be from "The Naked Now"

    Interesting story, I attended Anime Vegas with my 13 year old daughter this weekend (in Las Vegas 109 degrees!)… How do I know I'm not a real Trekkie? While there I attended a Star Trek trivia panel hosted by Vic Mignogna who came dressed as Captain Kirk in fabric made from season 3 (the ORIGINAL season 3!)….and I had NO CLUE to any of the trivia questions!

  • 46. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    That sounds like the episode about the Betazoid equivalent of menopause, when Troi's mother (played by Gene Rodenberry's widow, Majel Barrett, AKA Nurse Chappell) was chasing Captain Picard all over the Enterprise. Can't say that I fault her taste, or Deanna's taste.

  • 47. Shannon  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    I've tried to make the same point in various forums. Like when straight friends of mine announce a new boy/girlfriend or that they're getting married, I *never* imagine them having sex! When these anti-gay folk attend 'traditional' weddings are they all thinking about the glorious procreative sex the new married couple will be having (because surely they haven't had any sex before they were married!)??? It's just weird how people obsess about the sexual acts with gay people.

  • 48. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:42 pm


    Honestly, that's what hit me in the gut when I read the post earlier today re: Maggie, et al. She was saying that if we allow SSM, then what about grandmothers and granddaughters who live together? Or uncles and nephews…? etc. etc. And that just made me angry. How is that the same thing at all? We want to marry because we are IN LOVE, damn it! Not because it's more convenient or beneficial. WE WANT OUR RIGHT TO MARRY THE PERSON WE LOVE!

    Get it through your thick head, Maggie!

  • 49. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Is anyone else sick and tired of having their wonderful, complex, all-consuming love relationship reduced down to what we do between the sheets?

    I swear, my girlfriend and I have been together for over 18 months, but we've only actually been in the same zip code for a total of eight weeks (spread over four visits). Now tell me, how is our relationship solely based on sex?

    What about Franck who's been apart from his fiance for over 1174 days now? What about Felyx and Kevyn?

    It's not the sex that keeping these couples together, folks; it's LOVE!

  • 50. Heather Sheridan  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:55 pm


    Are you by chance the Shannon from my facebook friends that I referred to this site?

  • 51. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    " I know. It's got to be that can't-eat, can't- sleep, reach-for-the-stars, over-the-fence, world-series kind of stuff, right"

    – Mary-Kate Olsen describing love, in movie "It Takes Two", Kirstie Alley trying to figure out what is happening to her (falling in love)

    Yes Linda! I feel that and more for my hubby = LOVE ….which creates good feelings which leads to intimacy. Not the other way around.

  • 52. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 8, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    I am sick and tired of their obsessiveness over one aspect of my life with BZ that, while an important part of our lives together, is only one small part of our lives together. I help get things together for weddings (BZ is a rabbi), I help keep the house clean, I help with the things my 85-year-old mother-in-law needs day to day, I help keep a total of four dogs healthy–our cocker spaniel, beagle, and poodle, and Mother's little golden red Pomeranian. I help with projects around the house that need done, I remind BZ to take his medications, I help get Mother's medications ready on a weekly basis, I do laundry, I cook, I clean, I sew, I rake leaves and pick up pine cones, I search for a steady paycheck so that we can hopefully get from one month to the next with a little less worry about the bills, and also in the hope that maybe we can reach our goal of the money for our wedding trip sooner.
    I help when one of the kids calls and needs to get in touch with BZ and can't find him, or needs me to help them with something, and I love my grandchildren. So, how exactly is that not a family? How is that not a lifestyle? And what damn right do these people have to tell me who I can marry and who I love, when they won't even take the time to get to know anything about me?

  • 53. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Love and Blessings to you and your family Richard!

  • 54. Heather Sheridan  |  September 8, 2010 at 1:10 pm


    Be very careful when using the word "Always" while it may be true that in your experience all of the bisexual people YOU know only speak of thier sexual fluidity. I know for myself that is NOT the case. I am a lesbian, plain and simple, yes I have had sexual relations with men while I was hiding in the closet. In order to put others suspicions at rest. But I am a lesbian. As for the bisexual people I know they tell me the actual sex of the partner does not matter or influence them it is the person themselves they are attracted to. It could be someone of the same sex or opposite sex. If you will, it is the soul of that person that they are attracted to.

    Sentences, and generalizations about bisuals like the one you just made is no different than the assumptions and generalizations that are made by the religious right against the LGBT community and just as prejudiced and uninformed. I am not bisexual but I think a clarification and an apology is in order to the bisexual community as you just painted a whole section of the LGBT community with a very large brush, with nothing other than limited personal experiences to back up the statement.

  • 55. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 8, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    And the same to you, Gregory! Love and blessings to all the P8TT family!

  • 56. Heather Sheridan  |  September 8, 2010 at 1:28 pm


    I may be misinterpreting what you wrote but I agree with everything you said except this sentence.

    "How is that not a lifestyle? "

    I am, who I am. It is not a lifestyle. By saying lifestyle you imply having a choice in the matter. Such as being wealthy but living minimally. They have a choice. They could live an extravaggant lifestyle but choose to live a minimalistic lifestyle.

    Being homosexual, my wife and I live our lives just like everybody else. We are lesbians, it is not a choice it is who we are. That being said, how we live our lives is just as ordinary as a heterosexual couple's life together. We pay bills, cook supper, help the kids with their homework, argue over stupid stuff, like leaving dirty dishes in the sink or picking up the clothes that miss the hamper. The only difference from heterosexual couples is that we happen to be of the same sex.

  • 57. Heather Sheridan  |  September 8, 2010 at 1:32 pm


    Forgot to add Happy New Year to you. Also I am sorry if I am misinterpreting what you wrote.


  • 58. Santa Barbara Mom  |  September 8, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Wish you were my neighbor, Richard !!

  • 59. AndrewPDX  |  September 8, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    @Gregory, you are correct :)

    My mom was one of the biggest Trekkies I ever met. She knew Star Trek trivia very well (and she otherwise sucked at trivia).

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 60. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 2:53 pm


    From one hopeless romantic to another–it will happen; and believe me, it is soooooooooo worth the wait! (And your boyfriend will LOVE that you are a hopeless romantic!!!)

  • 61. AndrewPDX  |  September 8, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    @ Linda…

    I guess we should dedicate Tina Turner's What's Love Got to do With It? to Maggie, eh?

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 62. Linda  |  September 8, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    That's it exactly. It's the emotional and psychological intimacy that lead to the sexual intimacy. The sex is the climax of the relationship, not the sum total of it.

  • 63. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 8, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    The Naked Now

  • 64. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 8, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    should have read further before posting :-)

  • 65. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 8, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Thank you so much for writing this Linda. It spoke emotional volumes.
    It saddens me when certain people just can't get past the sex part of my life and my love.
    They just can't grasp that there is real emotional bonds and not just sexual playtime.
    They can't imagine the fear and terror I feel each time I allow myself to think about life without my Robert in it…the mind numbing soul encompassing terror.

  • 66. Kathleen  |  September 8, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Thank you, Heather. I don't know why the concept of bisexuality is so hard for people to grasp.

    Being bi doesn't mean I require a relationship with a man and a woman simultaneously. Being bi doesn't make me automatically more promiscuous than someone who's straight, gay or lesbian. If I'm in a relationship with a man, it doesn't mean I'm straight, or "afraid to acknowledge my true lesbian nature." If I'm in a relationship with a woman, it doesn't mean I'm a lesbian, or just "experimenting with women." Being bi doesn't mean that I'm automatically attracted to every person I meet (that was a particularly strange notion I once encountered). It also doesn't mean that I will never be satisfied in the relationship I'm in, because I will inevitably leave the person I'm with for someone of the other sex.

    Let's see… have I missed any of the stereotypes I encounter? And these aren't just from straight people, I get this from people in the glbtq community!!

  • 67. Franck  |  September 8, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    Thanks Linda. Actually it's 1175 days now… but yeah. Anytime someone questions the validity of my relationship on account of the lack of sex, I just have this reply: "If giving up sex was the only way I could be with him, then I would do it, no matter how painful it would be."

    Of course, I hope with all my strength that we'll never come to that.

    – Franck P. Rabeson
    Days spent apart from my fiancé because of DOMA: 1175 days, as of today.

  • 68. Elizabeth Oakes  |  September 8, 2010 at 5:01 pm


  • 69. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  September 8, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    the only thing I can add to this is that sense of emptiness when you aren’t with the one you love. The emptiness you feel even when you know that the separation is only for an hour or a few hours. It’s still there.
    STANDING O, LInda!!!!!

  • 70. Anonygrl  |  September 8, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    What a lovely piece! Thanks Linda!

  • 71. Paul in Minneapolis  |  September 8, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    She loves men!

    So she understands how gay men feel about men, right? Right???

  • 72. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  September 8, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    I'd say that you definitely understand relationships. You just described my marriage.

    I'm often curious why people think members of the LGBT community lead such different lives. Do they really think that all you do is look for the next sex partner (and, of course, there are enough heterosexuals that do that but the whole heterosexual community doesn't get branded with that brush). All of the gays and lesbians I've known (my son included) have jobs, have interests outside of their jobs, they pay rent, pay taxes, pay mortgages, have health issues, etc. So, other than their sexual orientation, how are they different?

    And, that brings me to another question, just how do determine that a person is a homosexual if they don't tell you or you don't see them showing obvious romantic interest in a member of the same sex. Heck, I look at my son and no way would I think he was gay. I look at some hetero's I know and they fit the stereotype of a gay man but are, as far as I know, perfectly happy married to a member of the opposite sex. Just what physical characteristics am I supposed to look for? Just wondering, but don't really think there are any.

    Sheryl, Mormon Mother

  • 73. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  September 8, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    I'd say that you definitely understand relationships. You just described my marriage.

    I'm often curious why people think members of the LGBT community lead such different lives. Do they really think that all you do is look for the next sex partner (and, of course, there are enough heterosexuals that do that but the whole heterosexual community doesn't get branded with that brush). All of the gays and lesbians I've known (my son included) have jobs, have interests outside of their jobs, they pay rent, pay taxes, pay mortgages, have health issues, etc. So, other than their sexual orientation, how are they different?

    And, that brings me to another question, just how does one determine that a person is a homosexual if they don't tell you or you don't see them showing obvious romantic interest in a member of the same sex. Heck, I look at my son and no way would I think he was gay. I look at some hetero's I know and they fit the stereotype of a gay man but are, as far as I know, perfectly happy married to a member of the opposite sex. Just what physical characteristics am I supposed to look for? Just wondering, but don't really think there are any.

    Sheryl, Mormon Mother

  • 74. Fake Name  |  September 8, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    Beautiful, thank you!

  • 75. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    Thank you Mandy and all those Women (and men) who stood their ground! Because of them I can be myself without shame…and full equality is so near!

  • 76. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    Brain drain here too! Meant to thank Bonobo :)

  • 77. Dude  |  September 8, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    Funny how the same groups that oppose same sex marriage oppose premarital sex. Wait until marriage… unless you can’t.

  • 78. Gregory in SLC  |  September 8, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    I guess I’m in a commenting mood today! I was one of those that did not have sex with my Mormon Virgin Bride until the wedding day and it was a bloody disaster (literally!)

    I wonder at times if I would have experimented a little with sex with my fiancée I would have realized straight marriage was not for me and avoided much heartache in many persons lives….but then I wouldn’t have four wonderful children and amazing growing experiences! One of life’s paradox’s!

  • 79. Sydney  |  September 8, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Great post, Linda. Really lovely.

    Wrote this in response to the National Review article.

    Why the National Review got it right
    Why it IS about the sex.

    Defenders of “traditional” marriage today have one simple task: to prove why heterosexual unions are more beneficial than homosexual unions. That’s it.

    Usually the self-appointed protectors of heterosexual marriage swear it’s because only heterosexual unions produce children and thereby the means to preserve the state. It is, consequently, just and right to give heterosexual unions special privilege. In the National Review article promoted by Gallagher the author writes,

    “The reason marriage exists is that the sexual intercourse of men and women regularly produces children. If it did not produce children, neither society nor the government would have much reason, let alone a valid reason, to regulate people’s emotional unions.”

    Ho hum. Same old arguments. And nothing about why straight unions are better than gay ones. Immediately the author moves from talking about the heterosexual sex act (something uniquely heterosexual) to the results of that act – the production of children(something which no longer requires physical, sexual intercourse between a man and a woman).

    As has been stated over and over and over, the ability to procreate is not a condition for marriage. Marriage is extended to infertile individuals every day. The National Review article itself even admits that “marriage is [not] only worthwhile insofar as it yields children.”

    Today, homosexual unions are not antithetical to reproduction. In fact, current research shows that a majority of homosexual couples are excited to support state interests by raising families of their own. According to a survey of 405 gay couples conducted in 2000 by the Kaiser Family Foundation, 8% of those individuals already were raising children. Of those not already parents, 49% said they wanted to become parents.

    This may be news to some, but penile-vaginal penetration is not the only way to produce a child. Although protectors of “family values” may wish to return to the days before sperm and egg donors, surrogate mothers, and artificial insemination, (not to mention adoption) the fact is, they’re here and they’re here to stay, and our laws should reflect the realities such scientific advancements allow … unless anti-equality supports want to argue that children conceived “naturally” are in some way superior to those conceived with the help of science.

    If anything, what the “procreation” argument demonstrates is that straight couples, because they can generate children without desire or planning, must be coerced into creating stable family environments through the government’s offer of marriage benefits. Gay couples, on the other hand, are denied such benefits because the addition of children to their families requires significant investment and forethought, and is unlikely to be undertaken unless a stable environment at home already exists.

    Such an argument is insulting to straight couples with or without children, and discriminatory toward gay couples. And I’m still waiting to know: if, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, the difference between homosexual and heterosexual couples is NOT the ability to reproduce, what is it?

    I had given up that the National Review would tell me. But then, about halfway in, they make their true case.
    The article states, “An infertile couple can mate, even if it cannot procreate. To men or two women literally cannot mate.” Here they make an important distinction between the sex act and the result of the sex act. This is the fundamental reason why heterosexual unions are superior to homosexual ones. The writer(s) of this article actually articulate their belief that penile-vaginal penetration causes a “biological union” which both results in and reflects the “complete (presumably spiritual or emotional )union” of the male-female couple which is inherently different from and superior to the bond created by sexual contact of same-sex partners.

    Since I’m fairly confident the author(s) of this article have never had gay sex, I imagine that their arguments are based on philosophical assumptions rather than personal experience. And these assumptions are at the heart of every argument against marriage rights for homosexuals.

    Supporters of banning same-sex marriage must be faced with the truth that their cause has nothing to do with protecting the human race by encouraging procreation and stable families. It has everything to do with reducing complex human identity to what you put where.

    Exposing this fundamental assumption, identifying its philosophical roots, and evaluating its validity must be the primary goal of advocates for same-sex marriage as we work to change hearts and minds.

  • 80. BK  |  September 8, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    I second that notion! Well done, Linda. :)

  • 81. Dawn_KJ  |  September 8, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    This left me speechless for a moment, and I actually felt sort of sad that I don’t have “that” right now, but I remember the feeling. Thank you for such a beautifully written piece. *sigh*

  • 82. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    Well said Sheryl :) I'm grateful for people like you who understand this!

    I work 2 jobs, enjoy maintaining house and love to cook. My happiest moments are having a lengthy intellectual discussion with my partner while on a road trip, playing with Star Wars toys with my 9 year old son or observing my 13 year old daughter interact with her amazingly energetic/enthusiastic friends. Life is beautiful :)

  • 83. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 8, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    Thank you Heather and Kathleen to address Matthew's comments. When I read it I just shook my head not knowing how to respond. It seems we are all learning.

    When I first decided to start living as my true self I had little understanding of the "B" or "T" so I researched about what being Bi or trans means. I found I was VERY ignorant and quite prejudiced toward both, projecting my own experiences to try and understand others lives. Part of my research took me into gay clubs where drag queens often perform. I was ignorant about them too! Some drag queens are gay, some transgender…some even straight!

    I'm so grateful for new knowledge, for a more open mind to love and accept all people for the life they live, the life they choose. Is it my business to project what is valid for them?

  • 84. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    Fun that you know the answer Mark :) ….talking about this makes me want to go back and watch all the Star Trek series again. Netflix is great for this!

    I don't watch TV much but I can justify watching Star Trek :) It creatively challenges our fears, prejudices and social issues.

  • 85. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 8, 2010 at 11:55 pm

    yet another comment by me! Sydney, I enjoyed reading your review of the National Review :)

    If the author wants to discuss sex, here is my experience. I was married to a woman for over 20 years, producing four wonderful children…but sexually felt profoundly unfulfilled.

    I had sex with a man not long before getting married (confessed to my fiancee and church and promised to not repeat) but had many other sexual encounters with other men within a just a few months of being married. These encounters did not fulfill me either. I was dismayed and baffled my infidelities :( I had much therapy, confessions and attempted repentance trying to overcome this troubling behavior.

    From the day I met my partner of three years I have not strayed or even been interested in exploring sex with anyone else. I knew in my heart I wanted to be monogamous. I just needed to be with the right person! I understand monogamy is not what everyone chooses, but it works for me and my partner.

    Sex with my partner is lovely biologically, spiritually and emotionally. I finally "get it" what physical intimacy is all about! It is lovely! fireworks! Passion! Closeness. If that isn't biologically "mating" I guess I don't know what it is!?

  • 86. AndrewPDX  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:04 am

    <cite>Just what physical characteristics am I supposed to look for? </cite>
    @Sheryl, when you find out, please let me know — my Gaydar isn't so accurate and I seem to fall for the straight guys more often than not. :)

    Me, I think I'm pretty obvious, so it always comes as a shock that people don't know. I find I have to constantly 'out' myself.

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 87. AndrewPDX  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:14 am

    Awesome post!

    I like the part <cite>that straight couples…must be coerced into creating stable family environments…. </cite> The 'procreationists', for lack of a better word, are in essence saying that straight people are not mature enough on their own to be able to create a stable home environment to raise children — they must have an incentive, called 'marriage'.

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 88. Shannon  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:23 am

    Heather: Nope, I don't believe you know me. I'm a gay dad in Mountain View.

  • 89. Ozymandias71  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:44 am

    Marvelous posting Linda!

    I also wonder why folks who oppose LGBT rights seem to focus in on the act of sex while ignoring (willingly or not) all the other dynamics in our lives.

    My boyfriend and I are very much in love – it's a tremendous feeling of contentment and joy (as opposed to simple happiness, which comes and goes with the circumstances) that soars far above the day-to-day stress of our jobs, arguing over what's for dinner (and who's gonna make it!) and all 'the small stuff' that comprises our lives.

    That contentment and joy takes many forms – sitting on the couch together, watching TV while our cat demands our attention, affectionate teasing while out doing errands ('Hey, quit tickling me – I'm trying to drive here!'), ranting together about other drivers WHO CAN'T STAY IN ONE LANE… the examples are endless. This contentment and joy is not something I feel even with my closest friends – it is a place that only I and my boyfriend share.

    Sex? Sure, we have sex – but it flies in the face of the 'stereotype' of the wanton sexcapades without love or commitment that these people paint of relationships like ours. Heck, we're often so exhausted by the end of our day that we end up just laying together in bed, cuddling as we drift to sleep. It is another expression of that contentment and joy!

    …but compared to the stereotype, pretty damn boring. And we're just fine with that. :)

    Love to all,


  • 90. Rebecca  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:47 am

    @Linda and Mandy

    Yep, same boat for me!

    It's very difficult to stay angry at someone when you're simultaneously distracted by how beautiful they are!

  • 91. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:56 am

    *BIG SMILE* ditto!

  • 92. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:00 am

    @ AndrewPDX: Here you go, just for Maggie. ANd this is a live clip from the Private Dancer Tour!

  • 93. Anonygrl  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:02 am

    Now you are making me jealous!


  • 94. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:09 am

    @ Heather: I was using lifestyle by the meaning I have always grown up with, such as "Middle Class Lifestyle." For you see, each of us has a lifestyle, or if you prefer, a style of living, that is so mundane, so normal, and the H8rs do not want to acknowledge that our lives and our style of living is that close to theirs. They don't want to admit that our lifestyle is the same as the lifestyle of any other married couple, complete with laundry, pets, children, PTA, mortgages, car payments, insurance, accidents, urgent care visits, flue shots, and all the rest that goes along with a married lifestyle. Sorry if I did not make that clear to you. My orientation is not a choice. How I live my life with my husband is a choice. And I choose to live responsibly and work with my husband to ensure the health and growth of our marriage, and our life.

  • 95. Bill  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:22 am

    Thank you for that, Gregory.

  • 96. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:38 am

    Yay! ditto! ditto!

  • 97. Bill  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:41 am

    "It’s just weird how people obsess about the sexual acts with gay people."

    Especially since gay people aren't getting up to anything in their bedrooms that straights aren't doing as well. And in much, much higher numbers, I might add…

    There ARE no gay sex acts. By default, there are only heterosexual sex acts that some gay people participate in as well.

  • 98. Heather Sheridan  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:48 am


    Ah, ok I did misinterpret what you wrote, sorry for that. It is just that the religious right like to call our orientation a lifestyle and say we have a choice in who we are that when I hear the word I reactively cringe and get defensive. Yes how we live is a lifestyle, who we are attracted to is not. Face palm on my above comment to you. Again I misinterpretted it.

  • 99. Ann S.  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:16 am

    I recently heard a story on NPR about the influence that science fiction such as Star Trek has on science, and vice versa of course. Some things are first imagined by science fiction and then scientists say, "hey, let's try to do that".

  • 100. BK  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:28 am


  • 101. BK  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:36 am

    "I seem to fall for the straight guys more often than not."
    @AndrewPDX: same here, ha. It really sucks though when they turn out to be extremely anti-gay. O.o

  • 102. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:37 am

    Ozymandias71, when you mentioned the joint complaining in the car about others who can't stay in one lane, I had to laugh. Since BZ and I have been together, my "traffic Yiddish" has grown by leaps and bounds! Not only because of people who don't know which lane they want to drive in, but the people who want to turn right from the left turn lane, or turn left from the right turn lane, and the ones who don't use turn signals to let you know they are changing lanes, or that try to push you up the highway at a rate 15-20 mph higher than the speed limit, or who want to speed when it is raining so hard that you can't see past the end of the car. Oh, yes, I know all about those times!

  • 103. ylw  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:44 am

    Lust disguised as love…that's what a homosexuality is. A sad state of affairs to be sure. Against the Law of Nature, however, those having once yielded to that seduction and no being had under it's influence will say things such as you would have to say Linda. Which now then cast all bound by such vice as the Children of a much lesser God…and I'm sure that hurts…no one, no one likes to be corrected when wrong. But in this free will universe those of a lesser God can strive to lift themselves to a higher expression free from a distorted un-natural viewpoint as is the homosexual mindset of lust disguised as love. Till then, if when ya'll bound by such unseemingness should so chose to rise above that, DO NOT expect the greater majority who are not given to such as you've fallen into, to give you quarter and blur the lines of distinction to allow homosexual behavior to be accepted as Holy and be acknowledged and honored into the state of Holy Matrimony.
    Furthermore, that the people twice voted in favor to forbid such foolishness is evidence of that majority. That for all those who are either sympatric with the homosexual to those who are and clamor for such recognition as marital rights will not win, there simply are many more morally stable souls than not. What the election does show is not the rise of acceptance homosexual matrimony as much as shows the degree of immorality in this regard…it helps locate the Children of Disobedience.
    Moreover, that the majority has expressed itself twice on the matter is uncontrovertibly…however, being such as things are in this world, the way out and into what the Children of Disobedience desire is thru the corrupt avenue of Law. Now that's the pickle. Law, has no authority over Moral codes. As in Law there is the reference of existing law to establish precedence of current cases. This is understandable. And so, Moral Law comes from the time tested powers and principles that are so recognized by citing Scripture. Now right there is the rub. The argument then goes to point out abuses of individuals who so stain the offices and positions of the Church thru out history. However, as with any organization who depends on staffing it's offices to discharge it's function is also replete with violations, most notable would be Government, Police, Mayors, teachers and so on ad infinitum. So that being said, that the Holy Word of God, or for the new wavers, the Universe and the Laws of Nature contained in the Book used to swear in testimony used in court as the most reverand authority and end of all, is because that book that contains the Moral Authority from which Law is to use as the measure to draw from the eternal guiding principals thru out all time…so in time and times do change, the underlying Laws and Principals that do not change can be applied thru Law to guide a Nation, such as in times like these.
    So then this brings us to the beginning, the vote. It sustained the verdict. The will of God's ever lasting power and principals as expressed thru the group or as in this case, the entire state's consciousness to not allow breaking that Morality in the Holy State of Matrimony as being between a Man and a Woman. If Law thru it's corruptibility and trickery of words where to disavow and over tune the will of the people who so Lawfully did petition and vote to amend the constitution as such in Proposition 8 and allow homosexual marriage, two things will happen 1) the stage will be set for the Children of Disobedience to foster more and still yet worse to come and 2) a new precedence will be set for the People's will thru vote to be permemantly subject further to corruptibility and over rule by unprincipled interest. That's a crime and I will not stand for any of it

  • 104. Ozymandias71  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:49 am

    …zzzzzz…. *snort*

    Nothing new here folks – same ol' 'I'm right, you're wrong and nothing you tell me will convince me otherwise!' statements. Sad, really – but predictable.

  • 105. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:56 am

    @ylw– how did you find this web site? And do you think anyone believes in your god because you condemned them and/or argued them into believing? If not, then why waste your time on us?

  • 106. Ann S.  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:56 am

    So true, Ozymandias.

  • 107. James  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:57 am

    Amen. My mother, although very supportive also, continues to tell me "she just can't picture two mustaches kissing" without finding it amusing. I love my mother and I know she loves me. It's just a sign of her times. She acknowleges my partner and continues to make him feel welcome. She did the same for my brother and his partner, although she recently admitted that in their case she considered him nothing more than a very good friend of my brother. I wonder if she compares mine the same…Hmmm…I'll have to ask her.

  • 108. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 2:57 am

    yes, but you see, the fact that you misinterpreted it will actually benefit me in my writing because it will lead me to be more aware of what I write and how I phrase it so that it is clear. To be honest, when I read your comment, all I could do was laugh at myself, because once again, I was about as clear as river mud. So, thank you for bringing up your concerns and giving me the chance to clarify what I wrote. Gee, that seems to be one of the best things about this site–when one of us doesn't quite understand what someone else has written, we are comfortable enough with ourselves and with one another that we can actually express the fact that we need clarification from that person. Cool! And thanks for reminding me of that fact also, Heather.

  • 109. Kathleen  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:01 am

    If there was a single comprehensible line of reasoning in the garbled mess above, I would try to address it. Either English is not your native language (explaining the difficulty you're having in expressing any of your thoughts) or you're incapable of reasoned thought. Either way, it seems pointless to attempt dialogue, so it might be best if you went back to talking to yourself.

  • 110. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:01 am

    Nice job, Sydney.

    I'd also like to add that the "government interest" in marriage extends far beyond procreation. It's in the government's interest to promote good, healthy citizens who can participate in democracy and be gainfully employed and peaceably assemble, etc. etc.

    Studies have shown that marriage is good for people! Lowers stress, reduces health risks, enhances positive outlook, and even helps folks live longer. Therefore, government has an interest in promoting marriage for all citizens, not just those who want children.

  • 111. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:09 am

    Oh my Kathleen! LOL! btw ylw, if you care to dialogue this group is happy to discuss. If you only want to preach, you will certainly find a better audience elsewhere.

  • 112. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:12 am

    lol, Gregory, I think it's "woe unto you!" but I love LOVE "whoa unto you"!! Since that's what many extremists are really saying to us: "Whoa! Stop being who you are! Stop that, now, or, or…." {fumbles into incoherence…see ylw}

  • 113. Mouse  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:17 am

    For someone who is bi, gender is akin to eye color. Blue eyes can be pretty, brown eyes are also lovely. Can happily settle down with a partner with either blue or brown eyes and be content forever – don't need to have one of each.

  • 114. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:18 am

    Interesting Ann and Richard…I hadn't considered that! I've always been interested in the social issues. I'll keep that in mind as I revisit the episodes :) Yay! can't wait! I love those shows!

  • 115. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:29 am

    Thanks Pam :) I appreciate learning new things every day…English/Bible-ish is no exception! I spent so many years closed to new ideas! Love 2 you :)

  • 116. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:33 am

    Bob, thanks for this. I love the poems of Hafiz; I have a copy of I Heard God Laughing which is one of my self-comforting books.

  • 117. AndrewPDX  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:33 am

    Children of a Lesser God was a great movie… Thanks for reminding me of it — I havent seen it in a while, so i'm going to add it to my Netflix queue!

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 118. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:37 am

    I think I know how you feel…I'm a recovering ex-evangelical, spent more than 10 years weighing and measuring my every word, thought, action. And feeling as though I deserved any & all abuse. Very proud of you for your work in healing; you are a blessing in every sense of the word to all of us here (lurking and/or posting!)…Thanks!

  • 119. BK  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:38 am

    Haha you're so fortunate. :) The hardest part is probably waiting for the right person to come along. *sigh*

  • 120. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:39 am

    Children of a Lesser God: Saw it on off-Broadway in the early '80s. Loved it.

  • 121. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:39 am

    I think this song sort of sums up in less than 4 minutes exactly what this is all about, and it doesn't matter whether it is a same-gender couple or an opposite gender couple. They have now added a commercial at the beginning of it, but here is a song that fits this thread.

  • 122. Mouse  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:42 am

    This counter breaks my heart.

    My first love was a high school teacher who was very closeted. He was afraid if anyone knew he was gay, his job would be forfeit.

    I wanted to live the happily ever after with him. I worked hard, thousands of miles away from him, to establish myself in the place he wanted to retire, so that one day we could be together.

    If it had been an option then, we might have been married. We might have had more time to spend together, instead of letting it all slip by waiting for a time that didn't come.

    He was going to retire in June of 2005. He passed away from pancreatic cancer in March, 2005. I couldn't bear to go to his funeral. I wouldn't sit through such a thing as just another friend and silently pretend that our relationship was not more than that, but because of the stigma of homosexuality and his closeted lifestyle, I also didn't want to turn the ceremony of mourning into some kind of grotesque spectacle by forcing his other loved ones to realize they barely knew him.

    Some people might have accepted it, accepted me – his family did although nothing was ever stated directly, I knew they knew what we meant to one another. It may have been cowardly, but losing him was hard enough without subjecting myself to the people who would accuse me of defiling his memory had I forced them to acknowledge my role in his life.

    If we could have gotten married, I wouldn't have had to go through that. He wouldn't have had to life his life in fear, or shame, or whatever else kept him so firmly closeted.

  • 123. Ann S.  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:46 am

    Richard, they specifically mentioned the communicator/flip phone connection in this radio program. Also reprogrammable keyboards/control boards, computer technology similar to that seen in the movie Minority Report, and others.

  • 124. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:46 am

    Wasn't that the movie that showed the discrimination against those with hearing impairments up to and including total deafness? IIRC, the young lady who won her first Oscar for that movie is deaf. I can see her face, but for the life of me, I cannot remember her name.

  • 125. Bob  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:48 am

    @PamC, glad you like, and know the work of Hafiz, can you please, check out the website, I'm sure Kathleen is tired of me asking her to post links, caus I don't know how., this is an incredible place to discover ourselves, outside of the definitions of the religious right, in whichi we are so trapped at the moment,

    It is time now for us as community to move on, to find other ways, known by our ancestors, to finding meaning and purpose, and bring that into our consience, to share with the world, I would like other people on this site to discover some of this history, and wisdom shared on this website. cheers Bob

  • 126. Ann S.  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:49 am

    Marlee Matlin.

  • 127. Mouse  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:52 am

    "Children of Disobedience" sounds like a great name for a band.

    Let me be the first to say welcome. It's been a long time since most of us here were in the self-loathing, denial stage – you still believe in god, so that often makes coming to terms with your sexuality a more difficult journey.

    I'm not really interested in letting you project your self-hatred onto hating me or any of the other kind people here, but do want you to know that when you get over it and come to love yourself for all of who and what you are, we'll forgive you for this phase you're going though and help you through the rough patches.


  • 128. AndrewPDX  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:54 am

    Well, as ylw's first word is 'Lust', I think he/she is just re-inforcing what this thread is all about — the anti-equality folks are all atwitter about sex, and what they fantasize goes on in our bedrooms.
    They don't know us, they don't want to get to know us. They just want a group that they can oppress so that they can feel superior… So sad.

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 129. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 3:58 am

    And how about their video screens and their resemblance to the HDTV, plasma, and LCD TV's we are seeing now, and the TV's that have the capability to be linked to your computer and enable you to stream Netflix into your living room?

  • 130. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 4:01 am

    Thank you, Ann. And she is still acting, isn't she? I seem to remember something about her having a regular spot on a TV show, which she said also allowed her to be with her family in one place.

  • 131. Linda  |  September 9, 2010 at 4:25 am

    Marlee Matlin was a regular for a few seasons on 'The L Word', which I admit to absolutely loving! :)

  • 132. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 4:26 am

    I finally found it at

    It does look like a great resource for our community.

  • 133. Bob  |  September 9, 2010 at 4:51 am

    @PamC , hudge thanks,

    today, a dam broke for me, Caffyn, was interviewed on our local radio station, I never heard the inerview, and had known about her website, even been there, I am ashamed to say Caffyn is a friend of mine, a woman who has been a friend, had me to dinner, her partner, made me gifts of wood, Caffyn is known locally for her fabric art,

    of course I take pride and am humbled by such a friend, but the shame comesfrom not having known the depth, and breadth, and wisdom in her heart, and the true work she does,

    My favorite, was in the orientations section, the river, and the story of the salmon,

    Reading these things, I realized, that the sum of what I know, and tend use to define my world and others in it, amounts to nothing, compared to the things I do not know, and that are still waiting to be discovered, WOW,

    on a macro level in terms of the world I encounter, and also very micro, in terms of a woman I know and encounter frequently, but only so far on the surface, in my known ability to catergorize, i.e. lesbian, artist, etc. she's much more than that, and so are all of us.

    I dare you to read the story of the salmon under the heading of the river, in the section of orientations, and not feel a devine connection to me, and everyone else on this site, and also those who have swum the currents before.

    Religious beliefs, even court cases don't defilne us , we are more than that, it's time for us to move on, up stream, I mean in our own minds and hearts, we can't give up the battle we're in, but our progress is not dependent on acceptance, or approval, from the other, but hopefully in being fully ourselves, they may come to some understanding of who we are, and loose their fear.

    cheers Bob

  • 134. Steve  |  September 9, 2010 at 5:40 am

    I thought the same thing when I heard the "responsible procreation" nonsense during the Prop8 trial

    The only people who procreate irresponsible are straight. Gay couples, if they want children, have to go to sometimes great lengths to have children. As such they are planned and truly wanted.

  • 135. Ann S.  |  September 9, 2010 at 5:41 am

    @Steve, and by their thinking, for this gay couples must be punished. No marriage for you!

  • 136. ylw  |  September 9, 2010 at 6:28 am

    Thanks Steve for pointing out spelling, cap errors, and other assorted crimes against grammar and such things…and I will strive to and achieve much better writing skills. As that time spent comes to pass, my message (position) remains the same…as does yours.

  • 137. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 7:35 am

    Here's an awesome quote from your friend, Bob:

    "In a society without conscious myths, rites and sacraments to conjure the sacred and guide the soul to its calling, queer identity carries enormous power. Gays and lesbians live the story of the hero. We each embody the archetypal pattern of the singular individual who, with improbable courage, finds and creates a home in a hostile world. There is an essential generosity, a call to community, in our story. Tyranny – including the tyranny of what is ordinary, expected, possible, and easy – overtakes any place without heroes to inspire rebellion.[ii] Lesbians and gays are icons to all who would dare to risk despair for the sake of freedom. We make a place in the world for mythic struggle and transformation, when we endure punishment for the dream of love."

    Caffyn Kelley

  • 138. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  September 9, 2010 at 10:03 am

    I am SO DONE with religion! the guilt, the shame, the “whoa unto you!”

    I wonder what ylw is hiding to come up with such a large paragraph? Whatever it is lurking in your subconscious ylw I wish you well on your life’s journey.

  • 139. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  September 9, 2010 at 10:04 am

    One good example of the influence of science fiction on science and technology is one that I remember from Star Trek. Look at the communicators from the original series, and then look at our modern flip-style cell phones.

  • 140. PamC  |  September 9, 2010 at 10:06 am


  • 141. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  September 9, 2010 at 10:11 am

    Oh, I see we have yet another misguided person who thinks he or she is a Christian, while going 10K% AGAINST the teachings of Rabbi Yoshua ben Yosef, because he or she has been blinded by listening to someone who has been spoon-fed the same old mistranslated, misinterpreted, redacted version of the scriptures that have been respun so many times that it is nearly impossible to sort out the threads and untangle them to arrive at the truth. I will pray for you that you will know the truth, and that the truth shall make you free. It is so obvious that you are imprisoned within a shell of lies, distortions, and misinterpretations currently.

  • 142. Bob  |  September 9, 2010 at 10:15 am

    Ah so timely, a diversion from the rant above by y/w

    A poem I discovered on the website, at check it out, as site dedicated to making reason of queer experience and our purpose on the universe, throughout the ages.

    It happens all the time in Heaven

    It happens all the time in Heaven
    and some day

    It will happen on earth-

    That men + women who are married
    and men + men who are lovers

    and women and women
    who give each other light
    often will get on their knees
    and while so tenderly holding
    their lovers hand
    with tears in their eyes
    will simply speak saying
    my dear

    How can I be more loving to you

    How can I be more Kind


    Sometimes we may need to move outside the battle zones we have drawn , which are familiar to us, this language of SSM and Religious Right, so important to us in our present battle, and remmber, this is only one dot in time throughout generations of combined lifetimes, Rainbow People, take pride in our definitions of queer, found in archetypes, thoughout the ages, and find ways to celebrate this diversity today, in our present struggles,

    Please check out Caffyn Kelly’s website, to help us look at the larger world view of what it means to be queer, the struggles it ensures, as well as the gifts we have to offer.

    my hope is it can be a place of comfort to you as it is to me, in moving beyond, our limited dialog.

    Thanks Linda, for bringing our attention to LOVE

  • 143. Linda  |  September 9, 2010 at 10:32 am


    Oh my; I've tried reading your comment, but honestly I can't follow your thought process (or your sentence structure).

    But I did get the general idea, I think: homosexuality is against your religion.

    Well, alrighty then; fortunately it's not against mine. :)

  • 144. Josh  |  September 9, 2010 at 11:19 am

    Wow!! Awesome post! It's so true. Our feelings of attraction and love are the same. Why? Because we're all human and the feeling of attraction and need for companionship is intrinsic in all of us. It's equally natural for me to find guys attractive as it is for my brothers to find women attractive.

    I found the last part very powerful and very sad that we should have to face those potential risks, "…willingness to risk being rejected by your family; that willingness to face public ridicule and shame"

  • 145. Josh  |  September 9, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Yes, so true. People know whether they are gay or straight long before they ever have sex. We know who we are attracted to.

    It makes me think about the comparison anti GLBT people make to alcoholism. They say some people may have a predisposition to being GLBT, but we should resist it, like people with alcoholic family histories should resist drinking. The fact is that a GLB person will always have their natural attractions whether they ever have any physical contact or not. It's not having sex that makes us GLB, it's our natural attractions.

  • 146. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    And Josh, I am a gay man who is also a recovering alcoholic. My love for my husband has not caused me any harm, whereas my addiction to alcohol cause me quite a number of harms. I have been sober now on a daily basis since 15 July 1996, and I know that I will go to sleep tonight sober, happy, joyous, and free. I know that I am loved, and the last time I checked, unless you are in love with someone like Charles Manson or Ted Bundy, love is helpful, not harmful. How is it harmful to love someone who opens your world up to new varieties of food, to a new language, a greater spiritual experience, and brings you into a family that accepts you and loves you for who you are, and for the love you give someone they also love? And it just shows how little they even try to get to know us when they compare our affectional orientation to alcoholism or drug addiction. They are truly two different things.

  • 147. Bob  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    it is time for us to move beyond the bigoted religious arguments as we know them., and move out and lead in new ideas and expand our world view of the divine nature of things. Including songs, on the ppm thread, and of course the new rulings about dadt, these issues will be decided in our favour.

    being gay we are called to enter a gigantic imaginiation of GOD. Instead of claiming a concept of God small enough to be agreed upon. We can admit to not knowing. Not knowing is humility, emptiness, readiness.
    Not knowing is an open mind and heart that can admit what is new, transforming, impossible.
    If we don't know or understand what GOD is, we might prefer acceptance and love, to rightiousness and punishment.

    quoted from

  • 148. Josh  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Maybe there's a hidden message in ylw's capitalization. Here's mine in reply.

    lust unseeMingness furthermore morally matrimOny moreover uncontRovertibly cOrrupt replete infinitum wavers disavow precedeNce!!!!!!!

  • 149. Steve  |  September 9, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    This begs to be answered with a quote from xkcd:

    ” … In conclusion, on examining the above post by ylw, after carefully working my way through the haze of spelling errors (documented in section 3), abuse of capitalization (section 4), and general crimes against grammar and syntax (sections 7-8), I have demonstrated that, beneath it all, the work betrays the author’s staggering ignorance of the history and the workings of our electoral system. While the author’s wildly swerving train of thought did at one point flirt with coherence, this brief encounter was more likely a chance event (see statistical analysis in table 5) than a result of even rudimentary lucidity.”

  • 150. Kathleen  |  September 9, 2010 at 1:15 pm


  • 151. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  September 9, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    All I have to say to this drivel is GET A LIFE. The world does not revolve around Christianity (just in case you were not aware of that). The US Constitution guarantees separation of church and state. Holy Matrimony is religious, Civil Marriage is just that recognized by the government. You and your fellow "Christians" can believe anything you want, BUT, you cannot impose those beliefs on others. Now run off and have fun some other way.

    Sheryl, Mormon Mother

  • 152. Linda  |  September 9, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    As a friend posted on a previous thread:

    “The First Amendment protects religious freedom by forbidding religion access to the coercive powers of the state. It’s a simple and elegant contract: We agree not to impose our beliefs on others in order to be free from having others impose their beliefs on us.” — David Machacek

  • 153. Linda  |  September 9, 2010 at 5:23 pm


    Really well-written!

    Thanks for sharing this!

  • 154. matthew  |  September 9, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    You are right Heather, I should not have used the term always…I sorta corrected that in the following sentence but only saying 'vast majority'. Which is how I feel. Personal experience probably colors my perspective. I'm 30, grew up in TN and FL, and now live in Alaska. All very conservative places where I've met a LOT of people that try to get by by sitting on the 'bi-fence'. Party girl who wants to be popular so flirts with the girls at the club but always goes home with a boy who is super turned on by her lesbian bar kiss. Straight guy in the fashion industry who doesn't want to lie completely to be successful. So says hes bi, because there was that one time in college when he was drunk. I especially understand the mentality because I was guilty of doing it myself. For a couple years I was stuck in bi-denial, trying to get by by claiming to be bi because being gay was so 'evil' but being bi was cool and totally retro. That was me still believing what I was taught about gays being evil was true, and somehow being bi was ok because that meant I could still be 'half good'. And since there was those couple times I had sex with women, I wasn't even lying.

    My feelings on the issue cannot be accurately summed up in a couple paragraphs. I don't have a problem with bi-sexuals per-se, or people who identify as such. But I certainly have a problem with the superior moral attitude that I keep hearing, from people who happen to identify as Bi. The guy married 25 years, who still 'loves' his wife but keeps flip flopping between secret gay affairs(with tons of guilt) and just being plain miserable(without fulfilling side relationships). He's not bi. Not by the definition that I've been using to try and convince people for years that its not about the sex!

    I'm confident that the vast(with a big V) majority of people who identify as bisexual will only ever end up in long term relationships with people of one particular sex(usually opposite). Someone please link me a study that proves otherwise and I will happily change my mind on this matter. I know that discrimination and social stigma are contributing factors in that equation.

    If you are gay, then you are gay, if you are straight then you are straight. It does not matter who you have sex with throughout your life. It only matters who your brain chemistry/instincts push you to romantically LOVE. If you are 50% likely to end up falling in love with either sex, based solely on your romantic instincts then you are bi….You can also be 'undecided' or if you continually find yourself sneaking out the back door to find fulfillment with someone of the gender opposite your current 'special person'. But that doesn't make you bi, that makes you unauthentic, or perhaps just trapped in that soul-crushing denial we keep seeing so many politicians fall prey to. Anyone who is using a definition of GLBT that involves sex instead of love is undermining the fight for gay rights. Undermining the definition of GLBT that the gay community has been using to try and fight for equality and to get people off the mind track of 'hey butt-sex is gross' and onto the idea of emotional attachment.

    All of this is based on my life experience, limited as it may be. I know I am not the only one who feels this way. Even if there aren't many folks who would say it out loud. It is not my intent to corral anyone into a box they don't fit in. Labels are hard that way. I don't own the definition of any word, but I get an opinion if someone else takes those words and turns them into ammo for the opposition that want to take away my rights. We saw it happen in Perry where they tried to argue that gays weren't identifiable because of 'sexual fluidity' or some such. That argument did not hold up in court, but it DOES hold up to people in the middle that have 'bi' friends and believe that being gay is a choice because their friend goes either way depending on if its friday or saturday. Even though it is extremely likely that person will only ever end up with a person of 1 sex.

    Sorry if anyone is offended by my opinion. But honestly, I am more sorry for my poor grammar and run on sentences. We are still a part of the same community, and part of the same fight for equality. We just aren't speaking the same language.

  • 155. matthew  |  September 9, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    I want to hear more from y/w. I read that kettle full of WBC crap and all I can think about now is 'Darkleaf, NOOOOO!'

  • 156. Linda  |  September 10, 2010 at 12:19 am


    Bisexuality is when a person can form psychological and emotional attachments to people of either gender.

    People who are bisexual have the right to identify themselves as such. They should not be censored because some others use that term incorrectly.

  • 157. matthew  |  September 10, 2010 at 1:24 am

    I have no idea how to do links…someone plz help.

    But here is just a single example of a random forum that popped up when I googled bisexual. Was looking for a specific article from a specific person, but I started looking at links on the first page of hits.

    It is mostly straight people talking about all the bi people they know that aren’t really bi at all. And they very much notice that it reinforces the ‘gay is a choice’ mentality.

    Most of the other things on the first page go something like this ‘do bisexuals exist’ ‘study shows bisexuals not really bisexuals’ ‘is bisexuality the new modern trend’

    I do not feel that this sort of mixed signal is helping the equality movement. I think it gives people one more reason to dig their heels in.

  • 158. rosebud  |  September 10, 2010 at 4:40 am

    :) Don't worry, I wasn't offended as I did understand the point you were making

  • 159. fern  |  September 10, 2010 at 8:37 am

    I liked the one on guilt, in this one I wonder about the difference between understanding and acceptance.
    The only thing I can say is that I'm hetero or at least I think so, for me the fact of reading a poetry book would categorize me as a sissy, so I became a closeted poetry reader, I think being closeted brings a feeling of guilt and wonderment and it all grew worse as I moved on and met gay people at a time it was illegal to be gay.
    So I can accept men being attracted to men but I don't think I could understand it.

    This could be part of the book I always wanted to write and of which the title is "Forgotten memories of my journey to nowhere" (blanks pages so far).

  • 160. fern  |  September 10, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Sorry for the “s” in blank above!
    to By Linda Liles and “It’s not about the sex.”
    I think I’m taking you out of context here but I think it’s always about sex. “oh well sex is important but it’s not the only thing” that sounds right too, because most of us have been brought up with “sex is a no, no” except that even when with our loved one when we see a body that appeals to us, we look and the subconscious part thinks about sex very loudly so loudly sometimes that the partner says “what are you looking at?” The question comes from a brain thinking about sex and the answer “oh nothing” is loaded with sex too.
    Animals do it, plants do it no like us humans but they do (so much for vegans)

  • 161. AndrewPDX  |  September 10, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    Ooo! That’s a cool title for a book. I can’t wait to read it.

    It appears that, as a straight ally, even you have felt the pain and fear that homophobia causes. Welcome to the club! Can I offer you a cookie?

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

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