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Trial Reenactment: Day 3, Parts I and II


By Julia Rosen

Day three from is now available. Here are the first two chapters.

Yup, this is an open thread. Use it to chatter about whatever you’d like, not that you need me to tell you that 😉


  • 1. Straight Ally #3008  |  February 25, 2010 at 9:52 am

    Well drat, I should have posted this here.

    [youtube =]

  • 2. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 25, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Thank you,Straight Ally #3008! I will be contacting this group to see what we can do here in North Carolina. This is yet anothr example of why you are one of the many folks I am MIGHTY DAMN PROUD to call FAMILY OF MINE!♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
    the Fagelah Rebbitizen of Temple Beth David

  • 3. Ronnie  |  February 25, 2010 at 11:27 am

    I already said it…..but I'll say it again…this video is awesome…..FB!!!!…..hehehe……<3….Ronnie

  • 4. Ed-M  |  February 26, 2010 at 7:25 am

    If it's wrong in science fiction (and it is) it's wrong in reality as well! Thank you Straight Ally 3008!

    2010… 3008… is it going to take that long to achieve LGBTIQQ equality???? I hope not!

  • 5. Bolt  |  February 25, 2010 at 9:52 am

    If closing arguments in Perry v. Schwarzenegger are being heard tomorrow, will Walker issue his decision? Will it take effect immediately?

  • 6. DonG  |  February 25, 2010 at 11:23 am

    There was a hearing on Thursday afternoon following a Motion to Compel filed by the Prop 8 supporters. They want documents from our side. Magistrate judge Spero granted their motion, so now, the Prop 8 supporters are going to try to get as many documents as they can from our side. Following that, they may decide to call witnesses, etc. to explain the documents, etc. Our side argued that our motives are not on trial, but that the Prop 8 motives are. The Magistrate Judge felt that Judge Walker should have as much evidence as possible before him, so he granted the Motion to Compel. So the trial is far from over.

  • 7. Ronnie  |  February 25, 2010 at 11:29 am

    That is total BS…they are trial…not us…..F-ing @$$wholes… they are really grasping for straws…..because they know they have nothing……….<3….Ronnie

  • 8. PDXAndrew  |  February 25, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Well, unlike the H8ers, I doubt we have anything to fear from disclosing the truth. I say, give them EVERYTHING. I mean, everything, every single case of H8 perpetrated against us, all. BURY THEM IN THE EVIDENCE. The Truth WILL set us free.


  • 9. Ed-M  |  February 25, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Much as I am angry at the H8teros (grrrrhhh…), Andrew's right. They will try to impugn our motives in the campaign and end up making themselves look ridiculous. IDIOTS!!!

  • 10. Kathleen  |  February 25, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Closing arguments were never scheduled for tomorrow. Tomorrow was the deadline for both sides to submit their proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law, with reference to the evidence in the case, and Walker had planned on then setting the date for the closing arguments. However, with this new ruling on discovery, I don't know how that's going to effect the timeline.

  • 11. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 25, 2010 at 9:56 am

    Thaks, Julia. All of you at CC are doing such a great job at keeping us informed. I do have a request. For those who think having LGBTQQI in the military is a new thing, can you find the TV movie "Serving in Silence" About Margerethe Cammermeier. Glenn Close played Margerethe in this, and did a wonderful job. And Captain Cammermeier had to fight for her career and her honor after serving for 29 years.

  • 12. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 25, 2010 at 10:54 am

    I've seen Captain Cammermeier in a couple of TV interviews, but not the movie. Here is a link to the IMDb entry for the movie:

  • 13. dieter  |  February 25, 2010 at 11:14 am

    Actor Andrew Koenig — best known for his role as Kirk Cameron's pal Boner on the '80s sitcom Growing Pains — was found dead Thursday in Vancouver, B.C.

    At a press conference attended by Koenig's family Thursday evening, police said the actor's body was discovered "in a densely wood area … unseen from the path" by "family and friends who initiated their own private search." (His father, Star Trek actor Walter Koenig, was among the people who joined in on the search.)

    Foul play is not suspected.

    "My son took his own life," his father Walter told reporters, adding that his son had been battling depression.

    "Don't ignore it; don't rationalize it," he said in regards to depression. "Extend a hand."

  • 14. fiona64  |  February 26, 2010 at 2:08 am

    I saw this story earlier. As someone who has been dealing with depression since 1995 (like 87 percent of people, meds don't help me), I cannot agree enough. There is a huge amount of shame attached to mental illness that makes those who cope with it embarrassed to reach out and ask for help. Because of that shame, people tend to think that if the person just "sucks it up," they'll get better … or to shun them.

    The first day I went to MCC (the one-year anniversary is coming up), the man who welcomed me (I have written about that) by saying "Welcome home, sister," was also the communion server. He said, "It is a good exercise for the heart to reach down and help another person up." I will never forget that, and I strive to get that exercise whenever possible.

    Please, friends, be kind to one another.


  • 15. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 26, 2010 at 2:19 am

    And fiona, you have once again exemplified why I call this community on the P8TT my family. Speaking of which, has anyone heard from David Kimble lately? Is he okay?♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  • 16. Ronnie  |  February 26, 2010 at 2:22 am

    I was thinking the same thing….I know he's been having stomach problems…I'll email him and check…….<3….Ronnie

  • 17. Linda  |  February 25, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    Yes, I've seen that movie, and it was well done. They have it on netflix, btw.


  • 18. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 25, 2010 at 10:53 am

    I hope everybody saw what Dieter said about possible televising of closing arguments.
    From the article we see that Friday is not the day when we'll hear closing arguments, and not even next week (Thursday is the last day for public comments on televising trials). Personally, I'd like to wait for the moment when televising would be allowed — that way we at least will be able to hear the gist of the trial and the brilliant logic of lawyers on our side — which is the best part! I really hope we'll see it! along with the whole world!

  • 19. Kathleen  |  February 25, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    Friday was never the scheduled date for closing arguments. (see my post above).

  • 20. Shun  |  February 25, 2010 at 10:55 am


    I applaud the efforts of what these actors are doing but I want to watch the real thing live!
    There are no witnesses to 'intimidate' anymore anyway so whats the harm in broadcasting the closing statements

  • 21. GregII  |  February 25, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    So – do we know yet then when the closing arguments are actually going to be presented to the court?
    I'm a bit confused as I thought it was supposed to be this Friday, but now it seems that its not?!?
    Love Greg

  • 22. Kathleen  |  February 25, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    Greg, there's been a misconception about Friday being the date for closing arguments. It's a misunderstanding of the what the judge said, then it's been repeated a number of times, furthering the misunderstanding.

    When the testimony phase of the trial ended, Walker said that on Feb 26, he'd be setting the date for closing arguments, not that closing arguments would be on that date.

    So, we expected to get a date certain tomorrow, but I don't know if this new discovery ruling is going to mean that he'll need additional time to make sure all documents are turned over before he sets the date for closing arguments.

  • 23. GregII  |  February 25, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Thanks for that Kathleen.
    I was anticipating the arguments being presented tomorrow – bit disappointed :-(. Was looking forward to the 'action'
    I have missed my daily doses of following this trial, and so was hanging for it after a few weeks of nothing happening (well – nothing except the excellent blogs that Brian and the others at Courage kept producing!).
    I'm in Australia and have been following all this since day one – it's been a great ride – which has a loooong way to go, I know, but we're all rooting (hope that term aint too offensive in the USA) for you over here in Oz!!!!!

  • 24. William  |  February 25, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    Thanks too for clearing that up. Would anybody be able to give an estimation of how long it will take till we get a ruling on this, even roughly in terms of how many months?

  • 25. Straight Dave  |  February 25, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Air Force hero busted for gay bashing.
    An encouraging and refreshing bit of news here. Even with DADT still in place, this sends an important message from the brass. Haters will be held accountable.

    I'm still a bit bothered by my own wondering about how bad this had to be to merit some punishment. Would a less severe incident have been shrugged off? I get a bit cynical about these things sometimes. But still, it's a step in the right direction.

  • 26. waxr  |  February 25, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    Daily Bible Passage

    Deuteronomy 23:9-14
    When you go out as an army against your enemies, guard yourselves against anything impure. If there is someone among you who is impure because of some nocturnal emission, he must leave the camp; he may not reenter it immediately. When evening arrives he must wash himself with water and then at sunset he may reenter the camp.
    You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine. You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement. For the Lord your God walks about in the middle of your camp to deliver you and defeat your enemies for you. Therefore your camp should be holy, so that he does not see anything indecent among you and turn away from you.

  • 27. Straight Grandmother  |  February 25, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    I doubt if things are going to move along very quickly. I think the H8ers have a valid legal reason to get the docs from our side. it goes to our side claiming we are polically weak and need protection. That being said I don't think the 3 groups on our side are going to give in, one is the ACLU. They claim they have freedom of association and don't need to reveal any docs. So they are likely to appeal.

    A I said previously this case can go eaither way on appeal. There are competing Constituitional rights involved and that goes to the evidence that was permitted or denied entrance into the case. On appeal the other side can, and probably will say, we had to turn over these docs that became part of the evidence and that was an error on the judges side. If that evidence had not been admitted we would have won.

    Watching these trial re-enactments is not the heart of the case. You do not see the legal hearings that are going on sometimes simultaneously as the testimony, on these points of law about evidence needing to come in or else as protected speech and being kept out. It is all these side hearings that we don't see in these trial re-enectments that are vitally important as it moves up thorugh the court system.

    You can read these docs yourself here-

    I seriously doubt if the ACLU is going to turn over docs without a fight all the way to the Supreme Court. And defendents have been asking for discovery of docs from the ACLU and two others since day one this is not a last ditch effort on their part.

    At that link above you will have to dig and find it but there is a very well written brief by the defendents asking one more time for docs from the ACLU and the 2 others.

  • 28. Audrey  |  February 26, 2010 at 2:36 am

    I'm interested in looking at the amicus briefs filed on behalf of Proposition 8. Does anyone know if there's a place where these are aggregated? If they're anything like the ones filed last year when Prop 8 was upheld, they're probably pretty wild. Those are archived on the court's website:

  • 29. Bob  |  February 26, 2010 at 5:39 am

    These videos, of the trial, seem to get at the heart of the matter, i.e. Church/Religion v.s. gay equality, The History professor has done a great job of putting the gay rights movement into perspective, in terms of timelines and objectives. In particular I appreciate the breakdown of our fight, initially being just to get the police out of our personal lives, and bedrooms, I very well recall that part of movement, the freedom to express ourselves sexually, sexual liberation, we marched and demonstrated and yes had sex in defiance of the laws. At that moment in time it was very much about sex, and some of us, myself included, took on the sexual liberation thing to exteme, and thought (wrongly) that it was all about sex. I participated in liberation marches led by Harvey Milk, without being fully aware of the whole political part of the gay rights movement.
    The moral values I was taught by the Church, was that I was not capable of love, my sexuality was a sin, condeming me to hell. The choice I clearly remember making in my youth was wether to accept that and commit suicide, or act out in defiance. I chose to party with the devil, so to speak, and this led to a cycle of addictions, alcohol, drug, and the worst sexual. In reality I lived out my Churches expectations for me. And yes I contracted AIDS in the process. As did many of my friends who so fully participated in the sexual revolution.

    I'm gratefull to the professor for reckognizing this part of the contribution , we had to start somewhere, and this part of the battle cost many of us our lives.

    What's amazing is we've come through that, and our community is even stronger. I now realize being gay is not just about sex or the right to have it, but that my potential for giving and recieving love, is just as geniune and real as anyone else's.

    So obviously as the professor makes note we have evolved and grown as human beings, in understanding ourselves, in spite of only negative stigma's pronounced by the Church. And as we do our demands continue to grow and will not cease until we achieve full eqaulity as human beings.

    He told the truth about history having the ability to look back and prove that moral teachings of religion has changed over time, and will continue to do so.

    We have a role at this point in time and place historically at taking on the religious right, which is so pronounced in the political sphere. Actually they feel so confident that they put themselves right out there.

    Hateful messages from a pope, who considers himself the voice of God, he was put in his place to some extent during the reformation, we need another one, he's calling for a fight.

    History professor's are continuing to study how changing moral values affect voting outcomes.

    He made one error in his acknowledgement of the Lutheran Church voting in favour of SSM, The Lutheran Church, which led the reformation against the papacy, and successfully steered a lot of people into protestantism, is divided into various synods, Only the Evangelical part of the Lutheran Church is pro SSM, Which is also interesting from a historical perspective because Christianity continues to break into smaller and smaller sects, each declaring to have their own version of the truth, it truly has become a house divided , andgay equality is one of the factors that continues to divide them.

  • 30. Richard Walter (soon  |  February 26, 2010 at 8:34 am

    Yes, and we all know that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Even Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef said that.

  • 31. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 26, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    Thank you for sharing your story and giving us your own perspective through your life experiences!
    I'm sorry about your AIDS! Hang in there!

  • 32. jimig  |  February 26, 2010 at 7:17 am

    Is there one form the religious leader I think his name was TAM

  • 33. jimig  |  February 26, 2010 at 7:26 am

    Sorry to be more clear I am looking to see if there is any video or testomony from the religious leader we called for witness, I think his name was TAM,

  • 34. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 26, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    Tam was testifying on Day 8 (January 21st), and we're still on Day 3 now with trial reenactment.
    Stay tuned:
    MarriageTrial (official website)
    MarriageTrial (YouTube channel)

  • 35. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 26, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    Dear Prop8TrialTracker!
    Why do I see "Your comment is awaiting moderation." before my comment to jimig?
    And there I was saying that we do not have moderation here… 🙁
    Why is that? We are not allowed to post links here anymore
    (I only posted links to MarriageTrial site and their YouTube channel)?
    Or I was specifically banned?

  • 36. Kathleen  |  February 26, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    Hi Kirille,

    I've seen a number of people here mention this happening to them when they've tried to post a comment with more than one link in it. I'm pretty certain it's nothing personal. (and since it's after 3am here, I may be the only response you'll get for a while 🙂 )

  • 37. K!r!lleXXI  |  February 27, 2010 at 5:27 am

    Hi Kathleen,

    Thank you for explaining — multiple links is an issue, I'll have that in mind. It was very kind of you to help me with that. I wish there was a link somewhere to explain policies of P8TT concerning comments and their pre-moderation. Alas!


  • 38. Kathleen  |  February 27, 2010 at 5:38 am

    You're welcome. Glad I could help. And sorry for the misspelling of your name. In the future I'll remember: No E at the End. 🙂

  • 39. Kathleen  |  February 26, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    I'm sure there must be a tape of his deposition, but I doubt it's publicly available.

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