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“The Mormon Proposition”


By Julia Rosen

This weekend the documentary “8 – The Mormon Proposition” has it’s limited release in 13 cities across the country. The movie which documents the LDS Church’s involvement in the passage of Prop 8 is being reviewed in newspapers across the country. Here’s the NYT take on the film.

The film dives angrily into the fray. It uncovers the classified church documents and the largely concealed money trail of Mormon contributions that paid for a high-powered campaign to pass Proposition 8. The Mormon involvement, the film persuasively argues, tilted the vote toward passage, by 52 percent to 48 percent, in its final weeks.

That involvement was concealed under the facade of a coalition with Roman Catholics and evangelical Christians called the National Organization for Marriage. Mormons raised an estimated $22 million for the cause. In the final week of the campaign, the film says, $3 million came from Utah. The money financed a sophisticated media barrage that involved blogs, Twitter and YouTube videos, as well as scary (and, according to the movie, misleading) television ads, and an aggressive door-to-door campaign whose foot soldiers were instructed on how not to appear Mormon.

Those who were following the Prop 8 campaign closely know most of this stuff, but I am told by those who have seen the film, that it is quite another thing to see this documentary.

After the passage of Prop 8 there was a lot of backlash against Mormons themselves, as opposed to the more accurate target the LDS Church. You can see how this line/distinction slips in this NYT article. The author writes “The Mormon involvement”, when it is more accurate to say “The Mormon Church’s involvement”. While, the vast majority of Mormons in California voted for the passage of Prop 8, they are not our opposition. The LDS Church is the one who organized all of those donations, broke the law by not reporting their in kind donations and recruited all of those canvassers. It’s a relatively small thing, but important as we all work to do outreach to those who opposed us in 2008.

How many of you have seen the movie already? What did you think? If you haven’t seen it yet are you planning on it?

I for one am curious to see it, even if I already know will happen.


  • 1. Ronnie  |  June 18, 2010 at 10:53 am

    I have not seen it but I want to….I may ask some friends if they want to go see it….I thinks its playing in NYC….not sure….<3…Ronnie

  • 2. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 18, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Yes, Ronnie, it is playing in NYC. I will send you the link to their FB page to your page. Or you can link to it from the Equality Rides page.

  • 3. Ronnie  |  June 18, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Thanks Richard…I think I already liked that page…. I'll check it out….<3…Ronnie

  • 4. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 18, 2010 at 11:40 am

    You're welcome.

  • 5. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 18, 2010 at 11:02 am

    We have not yet seen the movie, but are ordering the DVD as soon as it is released, and will host showings at home and wherever we need to so that the word gets out.

  • 6. K!r!lleXXI  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:16 am

    I live in Russia where, I'm sure, I will never see this documentary, ever, ever. But it's great it is out there for people to see! What we can do to spread the news? Well, we can post the links here!

    1) Official Facebook page for this documentary

  • 7. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:28 am

    Thank you so much Kirille!

  • 8. K!r!lleXXI  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:17 am

    2) Official website of the documentary

  • 9. K!r!lleXXI  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:17 am

    3) Netflix link


  • 10. PamC  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:53 am

    Thanks, Kirille!

  • 11. Straight Ally #3008  |  June 18, 2010 at 11:09 am

    Haven't seen the movie, but the distinction between church leadership and church membership resonates with me. I think you'll find something similar in the Catholic Church, where the upper hierarchy actually meddles in the politics (see Question 1 in Maine), the local leadership uses the "hate the sin, love the sinner" platitude, and much of the rank and file don't see it as a big issue (or are even gay themselves).

  • 12. Wren  |  June 21, 2010 at 5:43 am

    yes, but by remaining in the ranks of the Catholic Church (or any other church) while the upper echelon does what it does is basically an endorsement of that behavior.

  • 13. NetAmigo  |  June 18, 2010 at 11:32 am

    I want to say a word or two about how I think we need to respond to the religious community. I think we need to aggressively respond to them when they publicly attack gay people. This includes ridiculing, insulting and shaming them publicly. Keep in mind. This is exactly what they do to the gay community. My goal is to drive them into their church "closet" with the filth they peddle. I find it is oftentimes a shock to many of them when you aggressively come after them. For instance, a Baptist minister locally where I live has had a habit of writing letters to the editor raising hell and damnation against gay people. I aggressively responded to him tearing into him several times over what he said (try to keep it non personal). I'm happy to say I haven't seen his letters for some time now. I think you have to get it through their heads that what they say is not supportable and accurate, it is insulting and I am not going to passively sit around letting you say it. I don't think you can really be nice about it with many of these people because that will never shut them up.

  • 14. Tim  |  June 20, 2010 at 5:41 am

    They do need to be put in their place or they will continue to attack us. I too can't just sit and let the ignorance go un checked.
    Even when you go into a resturant,grocery store,bar, anyplace, we need to speak up when we hear people talking ignorance, not just shake our heads. SPEAK UP!

  • 15. UM  |  June 26, 2010 at 10:40 am

    I totally agree. Many of our strategies so far involve more passive responses to their attacks. There's no reasoning with those biggots, and they are certainly not nice people to deal with. By claiming they have God on their side they seem to think they can bend any rule, break any law, and do as they please for their agenda. They need to be put in their place, which is outside of the government.

    In my town I do something similar to what you did. I confront religious bullies' letters to editors and make the point that things will not always be their way, period.

  • 16. Kathleen  |  June 18, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    I saw it last week. I recommend this to every person in the US who is concerned with civil rights, marriage equality, separation of church and state, or why it's important to follow the money in the political process.

    As an aside, Dustin Lance Black spoke as part of the panel after the film. He made the point that in many ways Salt Lake City is ground zero for a strong activist movement.

    Oh, and bring your hankies. I cried through most of the film.

  • 17. Richard W. Fitch  |  June 18, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    It does not appear to be scheduled for the Indianapolis area. Maybe after the DVD is released the public library will add it to the holdings. It is one I very much want to see.

  • 18. Cobalt  |  June 18, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Do you think if we requested it, it'd make a difference?

  • 19. Kathleen  |  June 18, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    Yes, Cobalt. I've seen them responding to people on their facebook page and have even seen them post new theaters and dates after working out details.

    There is a "contact us" link on their website. Definitely write them; I'm sure if there is sufficient interest and they can find a venue, they will do it.

  • 20. Lora  |  June 18, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    I can't find it in Sacramento either…not surprising, really.

  • 21. Kathleen  |  June 18, 2010 at 4:54 pm

    I've seen other people express interest in Sacramento. Go to their website and write to them. I'm sure there must be sufficient interest in Sacramento.

  • 22. Luke  |  June 18, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    I saw the first showing today in Atlanta with 2 friends and my boyfriend. The film is absolutely fantastic, and draws out a lot of emotion. I feel that it is a must see for all, and is an excellent film to drag your less politically involved friends to to show them what is really going on and why it is important to be an active member in political campaigns.

  • 23. Michael  |  June 21, 2010 at 1:32 am

    It's funny that you mention Atlanta, since one of the local reporters with the gay newspaper gave the movie a negative review.

    I didn't get to see it this weekend as I was out of town. I'm probably going to wait until the early part of July (as I'll be out of town part of next weekend as well).

    Where in Atlanta are you, and where did you see it?

  • 24. Andrea  |  June 18, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    While, the vast majority of Mormons in California voted for the passage of Prop 8, they are not our opposition.

    YES THEY ARE. If they voted YES, then they are the opposition. DUH.

  • 25. Michelle Evans  |  June 18, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    I believe Andrea has an excellent point. We may try to say it is not the people's fault, only the LDS management, yet these are the people who sent in their money and spent their time canvassing neighborhoods and holding Yes on 8 signs on our local street corners.

    They could have stood up to their church and said they would not be a part of it, but they did not. For that they too must be as responsible.

    I will give a personal example when it comes to my transition several years ago. There was one couple who had been great friends with my wife and I for 25 years who initially supported my transition. Two days later that changed after they were told by their church to renounce me as an abomination! Not long after that I came out to another long time friend who was also very fundamentalist in his beliefs. He and his wife also initially supported me. The difference is that when they talked to their church about me, they were also told to reject me, but instead they told the church they were the ones who were wrong!! These people are still my friends and supporters.

    Anyone in the Mormon church could have said no to the blackmail of their church, and they could have voted NO at the ballot box. They did neither and should be accountable for that decision.

  • 26. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 18, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    Finding out that the Knights of Columbus was involved in working toward the passage of Proposition 8 is a very big reason I left the Knights, and also the Catholic Church itself.

  • 27. Cobalt  |  June 18, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    I agree.

    To a lot of religious believers, "politics" is some kind of sordid, messy, and complicated thing that they don't get involved in, and they resent it when marginalized people can't compartmentalize their lives the same way. I've talked to Catholics who don't care about how the church treats gay people or encourages their followers to treat gay people. That's "politics," and they're there for "religion," as though these two things never touch.

    Personally, I do make judgments about people who remain members of these hate-cults. I don't care what other awesome stuff the church does, because some things are dealbreakers for me no matter what organization we're talking about. If–for example–the ASPCA redirected massive resources to crap like this, I'd want ASPCA members to start making some tough choices, too.

    That's not "intolerance." That's accountability. If people are going to give resources and credibility and power to organizations that are actively trying to hurt people I care about, then they most certainly are the enemy. Sure, they're also their own enemies due to the fact that being brainwashed isn't a great path to personal growth, but just because I pity them doesn't mean we're friends.

  • 28. fiona64  |  June 21, 2010 at 1:53 am

    Michelle wrote: I believe Andrea has an excellent point. We may try to say it is not the people’s fault, only the LDS management, yet these are the people who sent in their money and spent their time canvassing neighborhoods and holding Yes on 8 signs on our local street corners.

    Here is the thing: devout Mormons believe that "callings" are never to be refused — that their god has established that this is something that they are to do, whether it is donating time, money, standing on a corner, calling people, whatever. If you are "called," you are not permitted to decline.

    Declining a Prop 8 "calling" could (and in many cases did) result in excommunication and "shunning." This is a huge fear factor for devout Mormons.

    It's easy to say "they should have just done it" and, while I wholeheartedly concur that such would be the case in the ideal world, the Mormons are as insidious in their treatment of "us vs. them" as any cult (in the pejorative as opposed to the anthropological sense). Saying that "they could have just said no" is the same as saying "the people of Jonestown should have refused the Koolaid." Once you've been thoroughly enculturated like that, "just say no" doesn't occur to you.

    I speak here as someone whose parents have said "no" to some things that the Mormon church has called them to do — and had the removal of their Temple recommends threatened. The "crimes"? My mother, who has horrible stage fright, did not want to play piano for Sunday school, and my father has not given up coffee. I also speak as someone who majored in anthropology at university.

    The members of the LDS are not taught to be independent thinkers; it is, in fact, strongly discouraged. If we are going to reach people, we have to understand that this is part of their psychology.


  • 29. Daniel Ortner  |  June 21, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    As a Mormon I can tell you that this point is not true. You can refuse a calling without any penalty. Drinking coffee is a violation of a specific commandment but does not usually result in any disciplinary problems and only results in the loss of a temple recommend through self disclosure in temple recommend interviews.

    Mormons are encouraged to critically think and learn for themselves whether a calling is inspired or not. What is unacceptable is public denunciation of church leaders and publically working to damage the faith and testimony of others.

  • 30. fiona64  |  June 22, 2010 at 3:41 am

    Daniel, that's not what your own Church says:

    Nor does it match up with my parents' experiences.


  • 31. John  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:24 am

    I agree, Andrea.

  • 32. Rose W.  |  June 21, 2010 at 12:42 am

    Not necessarily! I spoke with a woman before the election who was working with the Latino community. She reported that there was a lot of language confusion – that people who supported gay marriage and supported GLBT rights thought that voting YES was supporting us and retaining our rights.

    Mistakes and misinformation happen, dude. And you can't compassionately educate as long as you view them as the enemy.

  • 33. Dave  |  June 21, 2010 at 2:03 am

    "Hate the Mormon church, not the mormons"

    Sounds a lot like "hate the sin, love the sinner" to me.

    I have a friend who once pointed out that the best way to end smoking is to make it completely socially unacceptable – ridicule smokers, let them know how disgusting it is, shun them, make it clear that they are not welcome in your social circle. Make the social penalty high enough and the behaviour will stop. This is a little extreme for smoking, I agree, but not for vicious homophobes.

    This is what we need to do – make mormons painfully uncomfortable for their support of this organization.

  • 34. Shawn  |  June 26, 2010 at 8:16 am

    Isn't it that kind of thinking that would empower a Christian who believes homosexuality to be a sin, to ridcule gays?

  • 35. Kathleen  |  June 18, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    One of the things the things that became clear when I saw the movie — and I can't remember if the emphasis was reflected in the movie or if it came from the panel members – was the central theme of obedience in the doctrine of the Mormon church. People do not disobey their church leaders without risking excommunication and separation from their family in eternity. These are heavy threats for anyone who believes in their church. And in this political effort, people were told by their leaders to both donate money and how to vote.

    With that connection between leadership and members, the members act in unison with their leaders. It all becomes the same.

    I understand that there are individual members who challenged that leadership; I even have a (Mormon) cousin whose son is gay and she does not turn her back on him or think there is anything wrong with him, but this is a very small minority within the church. and until someone establishes that they are willing to act independently, I must assume that they act in unison with their church's leadership.

  • 36. pjinojai  |  June 22, 2010 at 5:17 am

    My husband's mother left the Mormon Church after 25 years because of Prop 8. She stood up for us in front of the congregation and "her" friends. She left and never turned back. She stood strong and as a result is a strongrer woman. That's support of your gay son and his family and the belief that we have the right to marriage.

  • 37. Roger  |  June 18, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    Is this movie on a public domain license?
    I think using p2p file sharing would really help get the word out.

  • 38. Patrick  |  June 21, 2010 at 7:02 am

    Dude, you can't be bothered to pay $11 to see it in the theatre, or $20 to buy the DVD when it becomes available?

    I hate to say it, but downloaders aren't going to be pirating this moving. "Avatar" sure, but not this one. Sadly enough.

  • 39. fiona64  |  June 21, 2010 at 7:09 am

    You can watch it instantly on Netflix.

    Piracy helps no one's cause.


  • 40. Kathleen  |  June 21, 2010 at 7:26 am

    If you have cable, it likely costs $6 or $7 to watch it "on demand."

  • 41. Alan E.  |  June 18, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    Here is what my friend, a former mormon, said about the movie (he saw it on OnDemand):

    Just finished watching "8: The Mormon Proposition." Very well made documentary that everyone should see. Especially the Mormons that contributed to the passing of Proposition 8. And I hope they would feel manipulated and lied to by their leaders. And then I'd hope they'd feel ashamed of themselves for being blindly led. That's all.

  • 42. Sheryl  |  June 18, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    My son and I will be seeing the movie when it opens in SF and Berkeley on June 25.

    And, I will state once again that not all Mormons in California contributed to the campaign and not all voted Yes on 8 and since I had my No on 8 bumper sticker on my car, it was pretty obvious where I stood and if fear of excommunication were an issue those people were in an even more right wing ward than I am and that is pretty right wing. My old Ward did not allow discussion of the issue during church meetings (only the obligatory reading of the letter from the general authorities) and had a non-Sunday meeting where the attorney who disputed whatever that ridiculous thing was called that was based on half truths and innuendos. We may be in the minority but we do exist and working from within (like Carol Lynn Pearson), is important.

    Sheryl, Mormon mother of a wonderful son who just happens to be gay.

  • 43. Kathleen  |  June 18, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    Sheryl, I just wanted to be sure you know–in case there was any question–that I do not group you in with people who blindly follow their church's instructions over this issue.

  • 44. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 18, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    Nor do I. However, I do group our local ward in. They actually had signs here in Fayetteville.

  • 45. Ray in MA  |  June 19, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    I do.

    Religiion is the root of a lot of evil in the world.

    Should I start with "the Crudades"?

  • 46. fiona64  |  June 21, 2010 at 7:50 am

    Ray, alienating your allies, especially those that risk much, is hardly a good way to win friends and influence people.


  • 47. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 21, 2010 at 8:15 am

    Actually, it is not religion itself that is the root of much evil in the world. It is the abuse of religion by those who are power-hungry, who are megalomanic, and who see anything that is different as a threat. It is not the religion itself that is at fault, but those who abuse it from within.
    Dr. Mel White is still very religious, but he is using religion in the proper way, to uplift people and to work for a greater equality for ALL. And I can list other examples, many of them are regular posters on this site, as a matter of fact.

  • 48. Santa Barbara Mom  |  June 19, 2010 at 6:11 am

    Sheryl, I too am a Mormon mother of a wonderful son who just happens to be gay. (And my husband shares my feelings). My bumper stickers are still on my car and there is definitely no secret in how I feel…….since I have been known to voice it in a Sunday meeting or two πŸ™‚ I wish you lived in SB because I feel pretty alone on the political issue.

  • 49. William  |  June 22, 2010 at 2:59 am

    Thanks Sheryl, I know your son will forever appreciate his mother's support, love, and acceptance. Someone once told me the difference between tolerance and acceptance is when we accept someone, we put our arms around them and draw them in closer to us, gaining great strength in the process. My mother always accepted me. I can feel her love and acceptance even though she has been gone many years.

  • 50. Billy  |  June 18, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    I pre-ordered the movie. Waiting for it to come out on DVD.

  • 51. Kathleen  |  June 18, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    Billy, do you have cable tv w/ "on demand"?

  • 52. Billy  |  June 18, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    I think so. Is it available through that?

  • 53. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:24 am

    Yes. At the movie's website, along the top of the page, there is a button for "On Demand" which lists all the cable companies where it is supposed to be available. People have been having trouble finding it on some cable systems, where it appears to be listed under the "New Releases" category, or whatever is similar for that company, rather than just the main movie list.

  • 54. Kathleen  |  June 18, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    The other independent film playing now is "Stonewall Rising"

  • 55. JonT  |  June 19, 2010 at 10:26 am

    Thanks – hadn't heard of that one. 'Saved' to my netflix que. 8: the Mormon proposition is already there πŸ™‚

  • 56. Randy  |  June 18, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Individual LDS churches have very little independence from the mother Church. Also, individual members are very strongly pressured to conform. Unlike many other denominations, it isn't a stretch to conflate "Mormons" with "the Mormon Church" – there isn't very much difference at all.

  • 57. K!r!lleXXI  |  June 18, 2010 at 10:30 pm


  • 58. pip chapman  |  June 18, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    Hi I am really interested in seeing this film does anyone know if it will show in England or where I can it on DVD?

  • 59. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 19, 2010 at 1:03 am

    Are you on FB, pip? (By the way, I have thought pip is a great name ever since I read "Great Expectations.")
    If you are on FB, there is an FB page for the movie, and they list the website there. The DVD will be released on 13 July, and I think they are already taking pre-orders for it.

  • 60. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:31 am

    It will release on DVD July 13. I don't know if they intend to release it for playback in your region (maybe you have a region way to play region 1 DVDs – don't know). You can contact the film's producers/distributors through their website.
    "Contact us" link on the left

  • 61. rainbowneck1963  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:41 am

    And I have just posted all three links in the newest post on my WordPress blog, thanks to Kirille being kind enough to post them here.
    Thank you again, Kirille!

  • 62. Sagesse  |  June 19, 2010 at 12:37 am

    It will be in limited release in Canada, although I have not been able to track down when, and I will certainly go to see it.

  • 63. Bill  |  June 19, 2010 at 12:38 am

    According to Netflix, it releases on DVD July 13. You can already add it to your Netflix queue.

  • 64. Sagesse  |  June 19, 2010 at 12:50 am

    Karen Ocamb with some 'less reported' observations from the closing arguments

  • 65. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:48 am

    Thank you so much for the links you've been providing lately. I really appreciate the sources you reference.

  • 66. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:13 am

    Yes, Sagesse. Thank you for all the links. Thanks to you, Kathleen, Fiona, Ronnie, and all the others who have been posting links since this site started, I have really been getting a priceless education.

  • 67. Ronnie  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:18 am

    you're welcome Richard…..<3…Ronnie

  • 68. paul bianculli  |  June 19, 2010 at 12:54 am

    What kind of fool says…"while the vast majority of mormons voted for prop 8 they are not our opposition"??? Of course they are!
    Proof? As them individually if they support gay mariage.
    The answer…some painfully sweet bullshit about how they love us. I want the question answered, not a candy-coated pc version of…you're a sinner and going to hell.
    The mormons are our enemy…plain & simple. If they've been brainwashed by the mormon bigshots…shame on them. Ignorance is no excuse for bigotry…not any more, not when it comes to my rights and not in 2010 when educating yourself is just a click away.

  • 69. Ray in MA  |  June 19, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    I agree whole heartedly, You've got i right… no sugar coating…they do no deseve any respect for their oppressive beliefs.

  • 70. Sagesse  |  June 19, 2010 at 12:56 am

    I have no vote (Canadian observer and supporter here), but you all might be interested

    How to Screw NOM over the Disclosure Act – TODAY

  • 71. RebeccaRGB  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:22 am

    I just had to laugh at this:

    "Our opponents know that we have a powerful message — a message about marriage that resonates with the American people."

    Uhhh… all your witnesses ran away scared, the ones who didn't actually helped us more than they helped you, and your argument has been reduced to "because it's always been that way" and "we don't need any evidence" — yeah, really powerful.

    "So instead of debating marriage,…"

    Like, say, in a federal court? You're right, though, we're not really debating at this point. In order to do that you would have to have a valid argument!

    "…they try to silence us instead."

    When you're brought in to actually defend your position, you're pretty good at doing that to yourselves.

  • 72. Dpeck  |  June 19, 2010 at 8:15 am

    This is brilliant! I just clicked on the link and sent my email, with "no" changed to "Yes" in the subject line, and I replaced the stock email with a new email with comments about the importance of transparency in issues of financial disclosure and urging my representative not to let lies and secrets hijack the democratic process.

  • 73. Jim  |  June 20, 2010 at 10:38 am

    thanks. Just did it also.

  • 74. Dagwood  |  June 24, 2010 at 9:56 am

    I did too! great idea!

  • 75. Cobalt  |  June 19, 2010 at 9:17 am

    This is hilarious, and I am doing it.

  • 76. JonT  |  June 19, 2010 at 10:53 am

    I think they 'fixed' it… When I tried it, just got a blank area where the 'mail' was supposed to be I guess. Oh, was worth a try πŸ™‚

  • 77. Tim  |  June 20, 2010 at 6:12 am

    Thank You Sagesse! DONE! It felt great too!

  • 78. PamC  |  June 20, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    What fun! Thanks, Sagesse. My wife & I did so today, and we both heard back from Rep. Joe Courtney's auto-reply, with our (revised) message at the bottom of the page. That way we knew that our subversive e-mails had worked. Nice one.

  • 79. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 20, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    Than you for this link, Sagesse. I just got my email back from them, and it was word for word what I typed. Still waiting to see what I get back from my elected officials. If I get anything different back, I will send them the email I got from the NOM automated response system to show them what I REALLY wrote.

  • 80. bb  |  June 21, 2010 at 6:10 am

    I just sent the letter and received confirmation that it was sent to my Senator and Rep. I just have to laugh. I wonder how long will it take NOM to figure this out?????

  • 81. Beth  |  June 23, 2010 at 10:20 pm

    I did it too! Thanks for the tip. I changed the letter also:

    I am writing as your constituent, urging you to support the DISCLOSE Act.

    Transparency in elections is a foundational component of American democracy. When I feel strongly enough about something to donate money and time to make it law, I am proud to have my vote known. It's called having the strength of my own convictions and makes me proud to be an American.

    I urge you to vote YES on the DISCLOSE Act.

  • 82. Douglas  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:58 am

    sweet… just sent an email also. Thanks NOM! πŸ™‚

  • 83. Isabelle  |  June 19, 2010 at 2:22 am

    This documentary should be broadcasted on national free television for EVERYONE to see!

  • 84. Dracil  |  June 19, 2010 at 3:43 am

    Take a gander at Yahoo movie reviews. Talk about variance. I'm sure half the reviews are from people who didn't even watch it, and it's just a straight rate it as F if you're for Prop 8 or rate it as A+ if you are against Prop 8.

  • 85. Lynn  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:17 am

    8:TMP's Facebook page reported that an online group of LDS members was skewing the reviews on NetFlix. Perhaps they are hitting all of the online review sites.

  • 86. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:45 am

    And why does that NOT surprise me? Am I getting cynical in my old age, or are my eyes just getting opened even wider?

  • 87. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:55 am

    On Netflix, there are only 5 review, all positive. But there are more than 300 ratings, which only requires a quick click. The ratings are 2.9 average out of 5. TPTB have definitely been sending their flocks. So, I guess we need to do the same.

    If you want to, here's how you do it: bring up the page for the movie, directly under it are the 5 stars, where it shows the current average of 2.9. Those stars are clickable. This allows you to rate it, without writing a review.

  • 88. Billy  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Rawr! Gave it 5 stars.

  • 89. JonT  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Kathleen – to echo Billy: Rawr! 5 stars it is πŸ™‚

  • 90. David Kimble  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:59 am

    Regarding the Mormon involvement in Prop8 – this is not news to me, but rather a confirmation of the facts I have known for sometime. I have not seen the movie, yet but hope to see it on DVD. The Mormon membership is vastly controlled by the leadership of the Church, yet most of the membership is unware of their folly in this campaign. I am still hoping they will lose their tax exempt status (at least for a time).
    <3 David

  • 91. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 7:12 am

    Did anyone here happen to save a copy of the live transcription feed? It seems to me the live feed included a transcription of the portions of the video that were played during closing arguments, which isn't in the written transcript. The live feed record is no longer available on AFER's site.

  • 92. Michelle Evans  |  June 19, 2010 at 7:47 am

    I know there are many, many good Christians out there, be they with the LDS or the Catholics, or whomever. The question I feel I must ask is that when you see the church you supposedly believe in do the things like they have done to us–and you believe they are wrong in their bigotry and discrimination–then why would you stay with that church? They obviously are no longer representing you, but a political viewpoint that has nothing to do with religion.

    I would call on anyone who is in such a church, and believes with us that bigotry is wrong and that we are all human, no matter our beliefs, then it is time to stop supporting that church. Tell them good bye and good riddance.

    If you believe that God is the one who will judge you, then you should not be afraid to leave an institution like the LDS just because they threaten you with excommunication or other punishments.

  • 93. Dpeck  |  June 19, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Very good question, Michelle. When my sister in San Diego heard her priest urge the congregation to vote yes on H8, she immediately stood up and walked out of the church with her two children. She never went back. By the following Sunday, she had found a new church that didn't spew bigotry and politics from the pulpit. It wasn't hard at all.

  • 94. Cobalt  |  June 19, 2010 at 9:19 am

    I talked to a Catholic about this, and her answer was that there's no church anywhere that can match the experience of Communion.

    Essentially, she disagrees with their "politics" (as though this has nothing to do with their dogma), but doesn't care about that enough to go to a gay-friendly denomination that doesn't give her the same transubstantiation-high she's used to.

    So yeah. Ritual details > the suffering of fellow humans. The fact that this is profoundly screwed-up logic doesn't seem to mean much, because you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  • 95. JonT  |  June 19, 2010 at 10:59 am

    "The fact that this is profoundly screwed-up logic doesn’t seem to mean much, because you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into in the first place."

    *Very* well said! πŸ™‚

  • 96. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 19, 2010 at 11:12 am

    Cobalt, I am sure that if I can find listings in QNotes and at for LGBTQQIA-friendly Catholic churches here in North Carolina, that she can find at least one there in California. So why hasn't she tried that?

  • 97. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 8:51 am

    The movie's facebook page just posted the following:

    FB Friends-We've had a few post from Utah about the film not being available On Demand tho Comcast users elsewhere can watch. If you're a Comcast subscriber in Utah, can you go to On Demand, see if its available? Maybe in the Same Day as Theater-All Movies section? You won't be charged unless you decide to purchase it. Also, if you're Brighthouse, if you could do the same. Please share what you find! Thank you!

    Thought I'd pass it along in case any of our trial watchers from Utah could lend a hand by checking to see if it's available there.

  • 98. Santa Barbara Mom  |  June 19, 2010 at 9:23 am

    Michelle, I have a very strong testimony of my faith, LDS. Like someone else posted, there are many of us who are your allies, although we are a minority. No person is perfect ~ we are here to be tested. I feel there will be a lot of people, Christian or not, gay or straight, who will be surprised to find they haven't done well on the "test" because they have not practiced God's greatest commandment to Love One Another. But it is not my place to judge. It is well known to the leadership of my church how I feel, and no one has threatened me or made any adverse comments to me. The pain you feel runs deep through me, but it is through my faith and my prayers that I get from one day to the next. God loves all his children ~ afterall he created them. I can tell you that it really is more about IGNORANCE than hate. I am grateful for this website, although I have to work hard not to be hurt by the posts. And I have money debted out of my account monthly to support this cause. When Judge Walker rules in our favor, I will be on the freeway in minutes heading to SF to celebrate with my son. Love to all of you.

  • 99. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 9:33 am

    SB Mom, One of the last things Dustin Lance Black said, when he spoke at the screening of the film I went to, was that it was up to the membership to take back their church from the hands of bigots and reclaim the essence of it that means so much to people. Personally, I don't know how you do that with the leadership entrenched the way it is, but I think you may find more and more people coming around to your way of thinking. I sure hope so.

    I'm assuming you know about the site for like thinking Mormons?

    I do realize some of the posts you read here must hurt and I appreciate that you stick around despite that. I'm guessing you understand why people here are so angry toward the LDS church and many other religions. It's very difficult to be tolerant of those who do so much to bring pain and suffering to oneself and one's family

  • 100. Santa Barbara Mom  |  June 19, 2010 at 9:43 am

    I AM one of those families. And I have a real hard time with intolerant people……….but at the same time I have to remind myself that I don't want to be one of them ~ that is, I don't want to be an intolerant person. Frankly, it's one of those traits that I have to work on all the time, esp when it comes to politics.

  • 101. Ray in MA  |  June 19, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    You can't have it both ways.

    Either leave or continue to enable them. Are you familiar with the concept of 'enabling'? It ranges form Alcolhism to Domestic Abuse. It's all the same concept.

    Please do some research on this subject matter. It will be of service to you and your fellow human beings. No bad will to you intended.

  • 102. Sheryl  |  June 19, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    Thank you, Santa Barbara Mom for voicing my feelings. I was trying to figure out how to explain my feelings when I read your post.. So I just echo what you say.

    To those of you who feel that I should leave my church because I don't agree with everything that the leadership and some members do, not going to do that. I strongly feel that by being there, by making my feelings and concerns known is a better way to bring change within the church.

    And, there are times when I wonder why I keep coming to this site because of some of the comments that lump all Mormons together. I worked on the No on 8 campaign, I support equality for all and not just because my son is gay.

    Santa Barbara Mom, I too wish there were more people in my ward who feel the way I do. But, i do have plenty of friends in other wards who do feel the same way. Let me know next time you visit your son, would love to meet you.

    Sheryl, Mormon mother with a wonderful son who just happens to be gay

  • 103. JonT  |  June 19, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    Sheryl, I am not religious at all, and can somewhat sympathize with those who see religion in general as 'the root of all evil'. After all, behind most of the organized funding and opposition to GLBT rights, lies a religious organization or ten. I have been guilty of that belief myself.

    But – I don't have all of the answers to the universe, and therefore would never try to impose my beliefs on you or anyone else.

    In my humble opinion, you should definitely *not* leave your church, and you should continue to work for positive change inside as best as you can. All of you here that follow some religious belief should do so. There is no reason the haters have to have absolute control is there?

    Indeed, some religious organizations (or factions thereof) in the US fully support LGBT rights.

    Telling you to leave your church is not that different from the occasional hater that drops in here (like 'Goerge') and basically says: 'America, love it or leave it!'.

    I say, no! America: love it or *change it*. That's what this frakken country is supposed to be about! Why would that also not apply to a religious organization that has perhaps lost it's way?

    Please continue to work within your religious organization to effect positive change from within. And don't get discouraged and leave our p8tt family πŸ™‚


  • 104. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 20, 2010 at 12:48 am

    @JonT. While your remarks were directed to Sheryl, I also feel they apply to me as a Jew. Yes, I have encountered those in the Jewish community who think my husband and I are breaking halakah, and yet, we refuse to leave Judaism, feeling we can be more effective within it than we ever could be from without. I also feel that your comment acknowledges the fact that oftentimes, the hierarchy does things without even considering the position of the rank and file membership, so therefore it is up to us as the rank and file to do what we can to make our voices heard.
    In our case, there is also the fact that my husbnad is an openly gay rabbi, so we must be here for those who feel cast out by other congregations, so that they still have a place they can go to for spiritual guidance and support. Thanks you for reminding us of that fact.
    Yes, too often in history, the leadership of various religious groups has done the wrong thing and caused horrendous suffering. And due to the outcry of those who opposed those actions, eventually the leadership changed and began the process of making amends. Therefore, it is important that all of us work from within for change. Thank you for encouraging us to do just that.

  • 105. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 20, 2010 at 12:50 am

    @Sheryl, no it is not just because your son is gay that you support equal rights for all. It is because that is the type of person you are. You are a person who abhors ANY form of injustice, and who will do all you can to be part of ending that injustice. You are truly one who loves your neighbor as yourself. Thank you for being part of the P8TT family, even when we have disagreements amongst ourselves.

  • 106. SB Mom  |  June 20, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Sheryl, I would love to meet you. How do we share contact info?

  • 107. JonT  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    @Richard: yes, I meant that for all religiously minded people here. I seem to recall pissing off fiona some months back in a related exchange – just wanted to be clear πŸ™‚

  • 108. Santa Barbara Mom  |  June 22, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Sheryl, there are two people on Facebook with your name and apparently neither of them is you πŸ™

  • 109. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 22, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    @ Santa Barbara Mom. the easiest way to find the Sheryl who is here on the P8TT is to find the P8TT FB group. You will see the correct Sheryl Beckett there. And I am there also. Any time you are looking on FB for someone from the Trial Tracker go to the P8TT FB group. You will find all of us there.

  • 110. Tim  |  June 20, 2010 at 6:22 am

    SB Mom, Thank you! reguardless of what side one is on, it hurts. I am proud to say I think I'm going to pass that test. I love everyone, it's just not that hard.

  • 111. SB Mom  |  June 20, 2010 at 7:44 am

    You are absolutely right. It isn't hard to love everyone. And in fact, last year I learned the power of forgiveness when with great difficulty I forgave someone who had hurt me to the very core & left my family broken for a time. My kindness was not reciprocated by her, but the liberation I felt was awesome.

    Thank you for your kind comments πŸ™‚

  • 112. Sheryl  |  June 20, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    SB Mom, you can find me on facebook under Sheryl Beckett. look forward to hearing from you.

  • 113. Bob  |  June 20, 2010 at 6:39 am

    Santa Barbara Mom, your story resonates with me, glad you're working for change inside your church.

    Have you checked out http://WWW.SOULFORCE.ORG they are a greeat organizaqtion working to support this very task of dialoging with your Church.

  • 114. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 20, 2010 at 9:56 am

    And for those who have not read it yet, Dr. Mel White, the founder of SOULFORCE has a very engaging and enlightening book about his experiences with coming out called Strangers At the Gate. this is recommended reading for everyone who believes in equality.

  • 115. Michael  |  June 21, 2010 at 1:46 am

    SB Mom, thanks for your support.

    That being said, after hearing and reading about the kowtowing by members to the threats from the higher-ups in California (like threatening to take away temple recommends by the local bishop or stake president), I can say without equivocation that you are definitely in the minority when it comes to Mormons in California. For that, I thank you.

  • 116. William  |  June 22, 2010 at 3:22 am

    Thank you Santa Barbara Mom! I appreciate your efforts more than you will ever realize. I too am Mormon. (Actually grew up best friends with President Hinckley's son). Keep the faith, your testimony, and your strength. We need parents like you to inspire us to be strong in the face of ignorance in the battle ahead. Thank you for joining and supporting our efforts for equality.

  • 117. Derek  |  June 19, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    My partner and I saw the movie today in San Diego and found it really interesting… Of course, there wasn't much surprising in the movie if you've been paying attention (and reading trialtracker religiously like I do), but it was still amazing to see it all on the big screen.

    There were only two other couples in the theater though! I hope that it stays in theaters long enough for everyone to see it!

  • 118. Kathleen  |  June 19, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    Spread the word among your friends. It's the only way the movie will get wide release.

  • 119. Sagesse  |  June 19, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    They're at it again. DADT is coming up in the Senate shortly. I must confess I don't understand their argument. The job description for a military chaplain is to provide spiritual guidance and support to an interdenominational flock, not to proselytize or evangelize them in the chaplain's particular faith tradition. If they can't do that, then they should be disciplined by the military or leave and go to a church where everyone has to/wants to listen to them.

    Southern Baptists Convention fighting 'don't ask, don't tell' repeal

  • 120. Straight Ally #3008  |  June 20, 2010 at 3:58 am

    I didn't realize the SBC had the most chaplains in the armed forces. That's frightening – so much of their leadership is in massive denial of scientific reality.

  • 121. Sagesse  |  June 19, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    Same topic, a more nuanced view.

    Southern Baptist Convention backs 'don't ask, don't tell'

  • 122. Sagesse  |  June 19, 2010 at 11:45 pm

    Speaks for itself. (Seems to be the topic of the day)

    Mayor Krieger, meet Maj. Rogers, a fallen hero who happened to be gay

  • 123. Ronnie  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:31 am

    NOM is practicing the art of twisting words to forward their "make Homosexuality illegal" agenda so well developed my the Nazi Propaganda Machine again……..

    Lets take the time to thank Obama for acknowledging 2Fathers today while the anti-gays insult, ridicule, & Hate ALL that do not fit into their mold of what is "ideal"……<3…Ronnie

  • 124. Ronnie  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:35 am

    Their headline reads: Obama's Father's Day Proclamation: Dads Not that Special

    Here is what Mr. President Obama really said:

    and here is my message to our President:

    Thank you Mr. President for honoring ALL Fathers & strengthening the value of fatherhood. All good father's deserve respect, not just heterosexual, married, biological ones. While the anti-gays say you are devaluing fatherhood,I say you are being a respectful & descent human being. They are wrong. It is wife & child abusers(such as my ungrateful father)that devalues it. I hope to be married to a Man & be a father someday & I will never treat my kids the way he did me & my half-brothers. Again Thank you, others should be so lucky to lead by your example of human "live and let live" kindness instead of forcing their anti-American "Live as I want U' to" agenda onto others.♥ Ronnie Mc

  • 125. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 5:14 am, the wonderful people who have been bringing us the trial reenactments, has a new piece on their website — a brief "behind the scenes" message for everyone.

    They filmed the closing arguments on Friday, are in the process now of editing and should have the video up on the site soon. I was honored with an invitation to watch Friday's filming; it was wonderful to meet some of the people involved in this project. This really is a labor of love for them and I know I've certainly appreciated all their work.

    As they mention in the above click, they will be doing a live webcast of "Judge Walker" (portrayed by Ted Heyck) reading the decision, one hour after it becomes available.

  • 126. Mormon Bigots Slammed in &hellip  |  June 20, 2010 at 8:14 am

    […] Prop Eight Trial Tracker: The Mormon […]

  • 127. Sagesse  |  June 20, 2010 at 10:03 am

    Karen Ocamb interview with David Boies

  • 128. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Closing Argument Reenactments now available (Day 13 – June 16, 2010).

  • 129. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 10:45 am

    The links don't appear to be directing to the correct videos, so maybe NOT available yet.

  • 130. Alan E.  |  June 20, 2010 at 10:56 am

    Don't see anything for Day 13. Did they take it down again to add in the testimony played in the closing arguments?

  • 131. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 11:07 am

    At the bottom of the list of the "Episode and Chapters" list, there are four links for Day 13. You don't see them… wierd – I do. They are misdirecting, though.

  • 132. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    Now they really are available. The links (Day 13, Chapters 1 & 2) connect to the correct videos.

  • 133. Bolt  |  June 20, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Is it legal for the religious corporations to pool their tax free money, into the NOM, and not report any of it? If it's not legal, why have they gotten away with it?

  • 134. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 10:44 am

    The bulk of the money that was donated was done through individual donors, albeit after being directed by their church to do so. Individual donors can make contributions without jeopardizing the church's tax-exempt status – which of course is why it was done that way.

  • 135. TomTallis  |  June 20, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    This is how they did it. At private meetings with Mormon men the local bishop told them to pony up X dollars for the cause (based on what the biship knew the person could pay – nothing is ever kept secret from the bishop), make the check out to the local Prop H8 front group, and then drop the check in the plate. The local stake then mailed the check to the Prop H8 front group and kept their dirty little hands clean (or so they thought).

  • 136. Sheryl  |  June 23, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    In my ward the meetings were not private with the men but rather with both the husband and wife (if the man or woman was married). And the meetings were not at church but rather at the member's home. And, the check was to be mailed directly and slip to the bishop giving the amount of the donation. Have no clue how other wards handled the issue.

  • 137. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 20, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    We got an email in the early hours this morning, and I need some help trying to figure out how to extract the link from it so that I don't have to post the actual email itself. It is from some wacko group called Public Advocate fo the US with their 2010 US Morality Survay. They are trying to use fear tactics and other stereoptype-baased idiocy to get enough signatures to tell Congress to undo all the civil rights that have been won. Can someone here who has my contact info get in touch with me and guide me through the process so I can get this on here and everybody here can get the truth out to these folks? If they can do it to us, we can do it to them.

  • 138. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 20, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Okay, folks, here is the link. At least I hope when I do this, that it works .
    Everybody who is a part of the P8TT family needs to go to this and let them know that they are wrong. They have the answers to each of the five questions preset to no, but it is very easy to change them before you send it.
    Warning, when you see the whole email message, this man is vicious, and very out of touch with the realities he is supposedly fighting against.

  • 139. JonT  |  June 20, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Wow. I cannot believe the wording of that 'survey'

    Headliner: "Radical homosexuals claim YOU support same-sex marriage, special job rights and promotion of homosexuality in schools. Please fill out the survey below and let your voice be heard."

    Haha. Why are we always 'radical'??? Every time I read about the 'radical' homsexuals, I can't help but think of scantily clad men in rainbow outfits, wearing bandanas over their faces, pointing ak-47's at cowering xtians on their knees begging for their lives… πŸ™‚

    WTF is the matter with these people. The survey questions are neat too. As an example:

    "1. Should homosexuals receive special job rights and force businesses, schools, churches and even daycares to hire and advance homosexuals or face prosecution and multimillion-dollar lawsuits?"

    Uhm… Sure, why not?

    "4. Do you support same-sex "marriage" for homosexuals or "marriage-like" rights, like homosexuals being able to adopt children and raise them in their "lifestyle"?"

    It just gets better from there. An expert use of scare quotes too.

    I filled it out (Yes on everything :), doubt it gets past their censors though.

    Reading shit like that – it still surprises me the hate these people have… And they call themselves christians?

    And another: "

  • 140. JonT  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Ok, so I botched the end of my last response. I guess I was pretty astonished. I understand why you did not want a direct link to this site – so called public advocate usa.

    I went to the home page and read all of their 'surveys'. Man – they *really* do not like glbt people at all. I read through their 'headlines' and other propaganda. I cannot remember the last time I wanted to just beat the shit out of someone so bad πŸ™‚ How can thinking people buy into such obvious hate???

    Public advocate my ass. Maybe it's time to create a similar site – one that 'informs' the people about the 'radical christian lobbies' who want to enforce their enforced ignorance and religion on us all.

    They want to destroy the morality of our our children. They want to destroy our families. They want to subvert all that is right in the world. Contact your representative now! The xtian radicals must be stopped or we are all doomed!

    Damn. Why are they like that?

  • 141. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Is this the same guy?

  • 142. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    And I want my SPECIAL rights — screw this "equal" stuff.

  • 143. JonT  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    @Kathleen: Yes – I checked the internic reg info for the site – it's Eugene Delgaudio (listed as 'registrant'). 5613 Leesburg Pike, Suite 17, Falls church, VA. phone is listed as: 703-845-1808 (no doubt that does *not* ring to his house πŸ™‚

    What a frakkin nutjob.

  • 144. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    Damn. Why are they like that?

    I wonder about that myself. I mean, what gets someone so fixated on gay folks? Did some gay guy cut him off in traffic? Gay contractor did a bad roofing job on his house? Gay professor flunked him in college? I mean, WHAT???

  • 145. JonT  |  June 20, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    @Kathleen: "I mean, WHAT???

    I wish I knew. Would help in trying to understand these people and maybe turning down the h8 dial just a little – but I'm guessing they are not interested in that.

    I did some more investigation – I was curious as to who 'jim huber' is – He's listed in InterNIC as the admin and tech contact for the delgaudo site mentioned previously. I wanted to know who was managing his web-work. I'm guessing he's degaudio's 'web-monkey'.

    The address listed for him (704 Donaldson Lane, leesburg, virginia) actually seems to be his (Jim's) house judging by google earth. A pretty nice house too in a nice neighborhood by the looks of it. I guess h8 pays pretty well!

    Seems he's running for town counsel (or was) of leesburg VA. Cute guy. Owns a lot of domains, including several that plug his 'conservative cartoons' which apparently are not 'PC' and skewer libruls whenever possible.

    Married, no children I can find. Campaign website is interesting as there are only two photo's of him – one photo-shopped from the other (to remove his wife) haha.

    What, he couldn't afford two separate pictures? Haha. πŸ™‚ Those interested can just google him – I don't want to post the many links for obvious reasons. Know your enemy.

    PS: I love the Internets. πŸ™‚

  • 146. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 21, 2010 at 4:01 am

    @Kathleen. Yes, the idiot Joe.My.God. is referring to is the same idiot that sent BZ that "survey."

  • 147. RebeccaRGB  |  June 21, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    Saw this "survey" before, and that time I filled it out as Afemme Lesbian from This time I filled it out as Autenpraud Translesbian from πŸ™‚

  • 148. TomTallis  |  June 20, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    Great. So in all the vastness of Los Angeles County it's playing at one little theater on Sunset, 45 miles from my house via the Harbor Freeway.

    Now for my major gripe. There is no difference between the Mormon Church and Mormons. If individual Mormons wrote checks, and they did by the tens of thousands to the Yes on H8 front group, then they supported pure evil and continue to do so. I have no sympathy for them and I run them off my property any time they show up.

    I recognize that it's a mind control cult, but if you don't needle the rank and file, our message will never reach the top. Don't forget the controversy about blacks and the church back in the 70s. The "Prophet" had a convenient revelation and changed church doctrine solely because of the bad publicity. May the same thing happen this time.

  • 149. Kathleen  |  June 20, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    It's available "on demand" on cable.

  • 150. Sagesse  |  June 20, 2010 at 11:08 pm

    Just imagine. Pugno funded by all those Prop 8 donors. Yeeech.

    Dan Morain: Prop. 8 role defines local Assembly hopeful

  • 151. TheSpencers  |  June 20, 2010 at 11:39 pm

    My wife and I saw the movie over the weekend. We were outraged, we laughed, we cried – the whole gamut. To think so much money was spent, and has been spent, over the years, to keep a group of adult US citizens from marrying is unfathomable.

    Instead of doing "Jesus' work" of compassion, giving to others, helping fellow humans, they used and abused Jesus for their own gain. I'm not a religious person but I'm pretty sure all the lies, scare tactics, misleading, using God's name in vain, cheating, etc. negates any chance of them getting into their (Mormon) heaven.

    Although there is much more the movie could have exposed, it did a great job smacking the Mormon chuch upside the head and letting them know we're not going to buckle under any amount of pressure or any amount of money.

    I would like to see perhaps a book on the whole debacle including the misdeeds of NOM in Hawaii, California, and especially Maine.

    A big thank you to Mr. Cowan for weathering the wrath of the Mormon church and making this very important documentary!

  • 152. fiona64  |  June 21, 2010 at 2:09 am


    While it’s possible that one or two members may have been directly threatened with church discipline as strict as formal excommunication or loss of salvation when they were asked to donate, the vast majority of potential member donors did not receive overt, explicit pressure like that. Many were told that donations to support Proposition 8 should be given the same importance as tithing (which is necessary to pay in order for a member to be worthy to enter the temple). Many were told that supporting Proposition 8 was the same thing as supporting the prophet (implying that non-support of the initiative was the same as non-support of the prophet).

    More than a few members were subject so some form of ecclesiastical pressure regarding their involvement (or lack thereof) in the campaign. Several had temple recommends revoked and others were unable to get renewed recommends. Others were released from callings within the church, and others were asked to stop speaking out against the proposition if they wanted to continue to serve in callings. Some members resigned from callings on their own, or turned down callings, citing their lack of support for the Church’s actions during the campaign.

    There is no doubt that members were given a not-so-subtle message that supporting Proposition 8 was a righteous, obedient and holy thing they needed to do as good members of the Church. As ecclesiastical leaders hold the ability to judge whether their adherents are worthy of eternal salvation or not, those leaders must be very, very careful what they ask of their followers. When using this lever to move the Saints, Church leaders need not exert much effort at all before members are enthusiastically picking up the banner and moving forward with gusto.
    Just an FYI, and this article is from a site created by and for LDS members (and other allies) who are sympathetic to marriage equality. Thought you might find it interesting.


  • 153. Sheryl  |  June 23, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    Individual wards and stakes (a larger organization comprised of several wards) handled support of Prop8 differently. I am in a pretty right wing ward (I refer to it as a "john Bircher" ward. However, my former ward (in a different stake) handled Prop8 quite differently. So depended upon the personality of the individual leaders. And while mine is a right wing ward, no one ever said anything about my No on 8 bumper sticker. Of course didn't have a calling at the time, but no calls to the bishop's office to be told to remove the bumper sticker or to lecture me about "going against the leadership of the church."

  • 154. Matthew in Seattle  |  June 21, 2010 at 4:32 am

    I saw it and was very satisfied with its content. I was deeply moved by the section about suicides and cried. The rest of the movie made my anger burn hot and I walked away with the constant thought of "what can I do to expose this truth?, how can I make this country see the light of the line of separation of church and state being so blatantly violated?"

  • 155. Kathleen  |  June 21, 2010 at 5:25 am

    For anyone who is on Facebook, I know Reed Cowan has been very interactive with people on the movie's facebook page. He has invested so much emotion into this project, that I'm sure he'd appreciate hearing your feedback.

  • 156. Kathleen  |  June 21, 2010 at 5:35 am

    A somewhat tongue-in-cheek view of the Prop 8 case, but certainly makes an interesting point. Are Proponents really trying to defend a trademark bestowed on them by god?

  • 157. HunterR.  |  June 21, 2010 at 6:45 am

    I walk away from religion long time ago and I haven't look back to often. I do feel at times that I (we?) have been left all alone in this big world without another important part of social life, RELIGION. I am a spiritual person (who is not?) but have no affiliations to organized religion.
    I do see now that the idea all alone is that our oppressors want to vanish us, make us invisible. The only thing their minds can see are genitalia and do not understand that we also want to be part of a FAMILY.
    Check this article and my response to it below:

    I really appreciate your article and the clarity of your words. I am not a religious person, for reasons that to a gay individual are obvious.
    Mormons as a group were never in my radar. Not until prop 8. I opened my doors many times to "elders" and listened respectfully to what they had to say. Not anymore.
    After 8 I went to a protest at the local Mormon Church.
    I feel sorry to say this but this church has declared war on a segment of the population for no good reason.
    Clearly the Mormon Church is not the only culprit in this moder crusade against gays and fortunately got all the negative press that deserves.

  • 158. Sagesse  |  June 21, 2010 at 9:14 am

    The world looks at the debate and scratches its head.

    Who imposes on whom?

  • 159. Straight Grandmother  |  June 21, 2010 at 11:31 pm

    Sagessee, thanks for the link I posted my comment. you will easly find it as i have a member name of Straight Grandmother. You know I really like that name, Straight Grandmother.

  • 160. Sagesse  |  June 22, 2010 at 2:55 am

    Glad you like the name. French for wisdom, common sense. Draws on my French Canadian heritage on my father's side… my outspoken mother is American :).

  • 161. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 22, 2010 at 2:58 am

    I like the name, too, Sagesse. And I see that you have also inherited being outspoken from your mother. Baruch HaShem on that! It is always grand to find someone who is wise and outspoken!

  • 162. fiona64  |  June 21, 2010 at 9:52 am

    FMLA extended to same-sex couples:


  • 163. Shun  |  June 21, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    On a non-related note, I would like a lot of you here to take a look at the the issue of binational gay couples. Obviously, with no federal recognition of same-sex relationships, same-sex partners cannot sponsor their foreign loved ones to come to the States.

    The Uniting American Families Act aims to correct this. It calls for allowing same-sex partners to be able to sponsor, like hetereosexual couples can (note that it calls for *partners*, not married couples so same-sex marriage doesn't apply here). It also is currently the immigration-related bill with the MOST # of co-sponsors at the moment.

    Four senators held a meeting last Thursday to discuss whether there are any stand-alone immigration bills that can be attached to other bills that are likely to be passed. If any of you has just a few minutes, would you please call these senators to get them to push UAFA as a stand alone bill?

    Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA)
    331 Hart Senate Office Building,
    District of Columbia 20510-0504
    Phone: (202) 224-3841
    Fax: (202) 228-3954

    Senator Robert Menendez (D-NJ)
    528 Hart Senate Office Building,
    District of Columbia 20510-3004
    Phone: (202) 224-4744
    Fax: (202) 228-2197

    Senator Harry Reid (D-NV)
    522 Hart Senate Office Building,
    District of Columbia 20510-2803
    Phone: (202) 224-3542
    Fax: (202) 224-7327

    Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY)
    313 Hart Senate Office Building,
    District of Columbia 20510-3203
    Phone: (202) 224-6542
    Fax: (202) 228-3027

    note: I know some people are wary of illegal immigration, but this bill is for people that are LEGAL…and want to do things the legal way. If you do not feel passionate at all about this, I ask you to imagine what would happen if your partner is someone of another nationality? There is no good and legal way for you to be together. So I ask you, as supporters of same-sex marriage, to help the binational couples community. We are limited in #s, but we are suffering as well. If any one can just take a few minutes to call the senators, I would deeply appreciate it. Thanks!

  • 164. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 22, 2010 at 12:08 am

    Will do. I am assuming that you are asking all of us to call our elected officials for our state in addition to those you have listed here, is that correct?

  • 165. Shun  |  June 22, 2010 at 9:44 am

    well these are the four people that were meeting so these four are very important. However, it would be great if you can get your local elected officials to co-sponsor too, if they haven't already. πŸ™‚

  • 166. Sagesse  |  June 21, 2010 at 11:05 pm

    Some Mormon reaction to the film

  • 167. Straight Grandmother  |  June 21, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    Table scraps, mere table scraps. Focus on gaining Marriage Rights and all these other special laws do not need to be enacted. Ditto for what Shun wrote about with immigration rights for same sex people. Same sex marriage is the Holy Grail. Personally if i were in charge I would turn down these itty bitty incremental steps, I would say, "No thanks." These itty bitty steps only show seperate but equal.

  • 168. Shun  |  June 22, 2010 at 4:25 pm


  • 169. ΔΆΔ­Ε—îΔΌΔΊΔ™&  |  July 3, 2010 at 12:08 am

    «I would turn down these itty bitty incremental steps, I would say, “No thanks.”»
    Straight Grandmother

    It's easy for you to say, you're not a part of a binational couple, you don't know how hard it is to live oceans apart from your beloved one.  At some point it doesn't matter anymore if it's just table scraps, we need even those scraps, and we can't even get them.  You don't know, but I do!  We would like to have even that while continuing to fight for our real marriage rights!

  • 170. riggledo  |  June 22, 2010 at 6:23 am

    I have rather mixed feelings about it. It's something I think I SHOULD see, to be informed, but I feel certain it will only make me angry and I'm not sure I want to deliberately subject myself to that.

  • 171. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 22, 2010 at 6:36 am

    Actually, the anger itself is not what is bad. It is what you do with that anger that is either good or bad. If you use the anger to work toward eliminating injustice, then getting angry has been good. If, however, you use anger to go out and harm people, then it is bad. Go see the movie, then use your anger to work toward the elimination of injustice like Harvey Milk used his. Like Ghandi used his anger. Like MLK used his anger. They all took their anger and used it for the good of people around them, and ultimately for the good of the entire world. Let us do the same with our anger.

  • 172. Santa Barbara Mom  |  June 22, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Richard……..regarding #104. Thank you!!

  • 173. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 22, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    @ Santa Barbara Mom. You're welcome. Also posted it on the other thread, because it showed up in my email box and I thought I had done something wrong and it did not get posted. We will be ordering some of your son's t-shirts shortly, just as soon as we find out how many are needed in our neck of the woods, what sizes and all the other good stuff. Is he always this straightforward and to the point? If so, he is an excellent communicator!

  • 174. Shun  |  June 22, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    is there any way to watch this movie online?
    I am overseas right now so can't really go to a theater…

  • 175. fiona64  |  June 23, 2010 at 1:35 am

    Shun, I think it's on Netflix instant play, which allows it to stream to your computer.


  • 176. Richard A. Walter (s  |  June 23, 2010 at 1:49 am

    Thank you fiona. This means that we will get to see not only that, but also "Stonewall Uprising," "Before Stonewall," and "After Stonewall." Those are also available on Netflix IIRC.

  • 177. Kathleen  |  June 23, 2010 at 5:44 am

    It's available to put on your Netflix queue, but it won't be available until 7/13 – the release date for the DVD. I don't know if Netflix intends to make it available for instant play or not. Besides, I think Netflix isn't available everywhere, and I don't know where 'overseas' Shun is.

  • 178. Kathleen  |  June 22, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    Not yet, afaik. It's supposed to be available for download on iTunes next month some time.

  • 179. Beth  |  June 23, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    I saw it with my partner at the Frameline Film Festival in San Francisco and liked it, mostly. The film is at its best when it shows how real people were negatively, painfully affected by Prop 8 — the parents, siblings, and friends of gay couples — and the couples themselves. It made me wish, as I had during the campaign, that the No on 8
    side had done more personal stories in its ads and literature, instead of the "you must be pretty stupid to vote for 8" tone many of its pieces took. When the other side is using sweet little children in its campaign, you need to fight back with the sweet little children with gay parents or who are gay themselves and what message discrimination sends to them.

    It's well-made and is an important movie for people outside the "choir" to see. I hope it gets out there.

  • 180. UM  |  June 26, 2010 at 10:41 am

    I haven't even heard of it up until this reading. I know, I live in an uncool city.

  • 181. MichGuy  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    Check out these 2 weblinks also on this case.;…

    Looks Like this suit was originally filed in 2004 and ammended afterwards to add more plaintifs

  • 182. Kathleen  |  July 1, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    And here:

  • 183. Auslogics Boostspeed revi&hellip  |  June 2, 2012 at 2:18 am

    Auslogics Boostspeed review…

    […]Prop 8 Trial Tracker » “The Mormon Proposition”[…]…

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