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VIDEOS: Three of the “best” moments from TheCall (Open Thread)

Right-wing TheCall Videos

By Eden James

The Courage tracking team was able to load a number of videos from TheCall Sacramento late last night. For your viewing, er, pleasure, here are some of the “best” moments from Saturday’s #TheCallTurnoutFAIL on the Capitol Mall:

(1) Water World

Here’s a brief cut of that promised footage of some of the estimated 55,400 water bottles that went unused, sitting in the sun near vast expanses of grass, unwatched JumboTrons and virgin Porta-Potties, all outnumbering the actual attendees of TheCall. Enjoy the muzak as well:


(3) TheCall prayer verges on speaking in tongues?

An unknown speaker intones that “you are the last line of defense… it’s a winnable war.” Lou Engle prays “for the U.S. Congress, that God would radically break in…” and TheCall followers respond to a Christian rock drum beat by praying and, though it’s hard to say for sure, speaking in tongues?

As this Labor Day weekend TheCall-a-thon comes to an end, please use this as an Open Thread to discuss whatever is on your mind or in the news.

Finally, if you’ve appreciated our coverage of TheCall over the last three days, please consider making a small contribution to help us pay for the costs of this coverage, including Arisha, Anthony, Phyllis and Andy’s staff time, travel expenses and video production. Even $10 helps. Thanks!


  • 1. Kathleen  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Just subscribing

  • 2. Ann S.  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Me, too.

  • 3. Sagesse  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:37 pm

    Methinks I forgot to tick the box.

  • 4. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Let's hear it for Courage Campaign!

  • 5. Linda  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:31 am


  • 6. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Just another example of fearmongering. He is trying to say that because organized Bible studies have been removed, that kids can no longer take their Bibles to school and read them on their own time. If that is true, then how come I have never read in the newspapers, nor seen on TV news, any students being removed from school for bringing their Bibles and studying them on their lunch break, or while waiting for the class day to start after the bus drops them off, or while waiting on their bus after the school day has ended? Because it isn't happening, that's why! And yet, the people who attended this soiree actually believed this loony-tune!

  • 7. Tracy  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    Richard, you haven't seen it because they have erected Bible-detectors at the front doors of schools these days. When detected, the Bibles are confiscated and destroyed while the students have to watch.

  • 8. draNgNon  |  September 6, 2010 at 3:05 am

    just catching up on the thread.

    Tracy, that is a scary thought.

  • 9. Ronnie  |  September 10, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Scary thought….yeah…what the fundies believe to be true?…I wouldn't be surprised if they did….I'm just saying….<3…Ronnie

  • 10. Sagesse  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:45 am

    Does anyone else feel like they've reached the limit of how much of this filth they can take? Have to remind myself this was a fail, a non-event. Their audience and influence is shrinking.

  • 11. Sagesse  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:45 am

    "are shrinking"…. drat

  • 12. Eden James  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Well, if it's any consolation, this will be the last post on TheCall Sacramento, barring any unforeseen developments or compelling new takes on what happened.

  • 13. BK  |  September 7, 2010 at 3:41 am

    Who honestly cares about grammar? ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I *extremely dislike* (no h8, remember?) not being able to yell at something and smash it to pieces… there's no real way to allow internal anger to "get out". Or so I've found so far.

    On second thought, maybe I should buy some old pots and a baseball bat…

  • 14. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    I don't know if they're ever going away….there were still thousands of people who attended. And they scare me.

  • 15. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    It's the Fearful Fifth. Always has been, always will be. The way I see it, such crap is the price we pay for living in a free society. We have to keep focusing on the real battles we have won:

    — The hate crimes bill was signed into law in 09. That makes it illegal for them to actually call for violence. If they do, a suit can be filed.

    — We won the lower federal court ruling on Prop 8. It's as complete a ruling as possible.

    Yes, words matter. They can shape people and policy. But, as you say, the numbers are shrinking. There will probably always be a small contingent who hates LGBT and equality in general. There are still racists, after all. However, public opinion and law has squelched the worst of them and painted them as the ignorant trolls they are. Same will happen on this issue. I am sure.

  • 16. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:10 am

    Perhaps this would be helpful with the filth:

    Couldn't hurt.:))

  • 17. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:25 am

    Thank you, Furface! I needed a laugh today!

  • 18. Sagesse  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:46 am

    Noooo. Don't make the cute puppy lick that stuff :).

  • 19. Regan DuCasse  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:46 am

    The facts before their own eyes aren't believed!
    Too right, Richard.
    Wherever there is expansion of rights to gay people, there are non that restrict the religious.
    If what they said were true, even close.

    The people like Tony Perkins and so on wouldn't be given any opportunity to speak. There wouldn't be rallies like The Call allowed, there would BE no churches, no Bibles or any other places of worship in evidence.
    Even in the Soviet Union, St. Peter's Basilica is still standing.

    How STUPID is their audience to believe any of this crap?
    It's like I keeps asking these same people.
    Jehovah's Witnesses don't allow organ and blood donation.
    But they don't require the government to ban it for others.
    Nor do they say it's a restriction of their religious rights if others use it.

    THAT is the easiest way to call all these people on their bullshit.
    What their problem is, is they don't even understand the REAL tenets of their own religion and their responsibility to it AS A CHOICE.
    Dumb asses.

  • 20. fern  |  September 6, 2010 at 7:57 am

    People will always need religion, it is the hope they need, with religion hope is that no matter what God will forgive you and after some repentance you will access paradise
    (after we die).
    You have to realize the the majority of us are Dumb asses.

    After 50 years of communism in Russia the churches are still going strong and they never dared destroy all the churches because they knew religions are here to stay.

  • 21. Chris  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:52 am

    It makes me sick to think that I used to be these people. It turns my stomach to think of the agenda that I may have furthered in my "work for jesus" and for that I am truly sorry.

  • 22. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    But, your experience is invaluable now, as we try to understand (and even mend fences, ultimately) with these (sorry, I was being so diplomatic up till now) freakazoids.

  • 23. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    I agree with Cookie. Courageous translators are always needed. The more people tell their stories, the more the truth about these mentally fuzzy verbally ignorant gnomes will be known.

    A book you might be interested in is Crazy for God by Frank Schaeffer, son of evangelist Francis Schaeffer. He is very compassionate toward the people but quite unbending in his criticism of the movement.

  • 24. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    Crazy for God…that is a brilliant title. And I don't mean that is a cruel way.

    Very compelling title that says a lot..

  • 25. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Chris, yes, it does. He basically says that for a while he went "crazy" for God in that he wasn't quite in his right mind about religion or how to teach it. He talks about the actions that led him there, and what convinced him to leave. He does so without malice, which is the absolutely shocking part.

  • 26. Chris in Lathrop  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:11 am

    Chris, we are all manipulated from birth to be what society wants us to be. And, from time to time, we all end up doing something we would rather not have done. The important fact is not that you held an ideal and worked to further it, nor that you decided you were in error, but simply that you decided to change course. Always ponder what is right, and why, and keep an open mind. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • 27. Chrys  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:53 am

    I've asked before, but I think it got lost. Is there any way to donate through Paypal instead of a credit card? I got into trouble years ago, and now I avoid using credit cards as much as possible… I can send a check, I guess, but I keep forgetting to do that.

  • 28. PamC  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:20 am

    I second this. Paypal is very easy to use, and would make it easier for me (and others) to donate!

  • 29. Dpeck  |  September 6, 2010 at 2:27 am

    These ideas may get lost in the comments so you guys may want to email courage campaign directly. The email address is in the column at the right, under the blue heading that says "CONNECT WITH US":

    Please send tips to

    [email protected]

  • 30. Chrys  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:10 am

    Thanks, Dpeck – have sent an email.

  • 31. fern  |  September 11, 2010 at 1:08 am

    Paypal is OK now, it's been on since February this year when I inquired.

  • 32. Bolt  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Far out. This makes Folsom Street Fair look normal.

  • 33. Lora  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    For those that came to Sacramento for TheCall and have stuck around…I've seen them walking around town with their "LIFE" stickers on their shirts…
    There's another event they could attend that's just down the street. It's the Rainbow Festival at 21st and K!

  • 34. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    Holy Flashback Batman! The first thing I noticed was that these rallies are a) all the same and b) haven't changed their music in a decade. As a teenager, I was drawn into the Religious Right rallies headed by Joshua someone who didn't like dating because 19th century courting was more Biblical. Or something. He said similar things. With similar music. Two outdoor gatherings in my hometown sponsored by my church said the same things. With the same music.

    I have to ask: this approach clearly isn't working so why keep doing it?

    Also, I can tell you that Bibles and prayer are not banned in public schools. I said grace at lunch and brought an NT to study in middle school and was within my rights to do so. All that is banned is MANDATORY prayer and Bible teaching. And, that is a good thing.

  • 35. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    Rhie: I don't think I greeted you in the earlier thread! GLAD YOU'RE HERE!! (And that you got out!)

    Best wishes – – – Cookie

  • 36. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    Hi! *waves*

    Thank you. It's really not easy to leave this mess. I still have to catch myself before I say something more indicative of the Religious Right than what I actually believe now.

    Best wishes to you too!

  • 37. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    I'm sure like everything, it's a process. But every day you get further from that past you don't believe in any more.

    Congrats on your willingness to change. It can be one of the most challenging things to do in life : )

  • 38. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    Thanks ๐Ÿ™‚

    It's incredibly rewarding. I have some awesome friends who encourage and teach – including all you guys now!. I have far more opportunities to learn and grow and just…be than I have ever had before.

  • 39. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Yes, you CAN simply be now, as yourself, without chanelling some mystical, Bronze Age rules and rationale through you. Welcome to the real world!

    When you wrote "I have far more opportunities to learn and grow and just…be than I have ever had before," it made me think of what other people have said as they were recovering from…addiction! Extreme substances (including religion) can get cumpulsive, and they cloud what's really happening, where you really are, what you're really feeling. Most people dive into them because they WANT them to do that.

    But then when you want a better, clearer, more genuine life, you can only do that by putting them down.

    Yum! You have your whole life ahead of you! And you don't have to walk through it like a funhouse hall of mirrors, where everything's distorded….by some Christianist Creed.

  • 40. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Yes. It's like walking from surreal clouded world of absolutism to a better place of questions, answers, discovery and interest.

    It's really amazing – I have many more challenges right now than I did in my teens in the Religious Right life but I am so much happier. Tells me something when life with chronic pain and depression, without Religious Right and faux-Christianity is better than life without the pain but with the beliefs.

  • 41. Tracy  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    I didn't see anyone mention this – but that guy dragging around the cross was the epitome of "Christian" hypocrisy… clearly he wanted to make a point. I think he wanted people to see the cross and think about Jesus having to drag his own cross to his own execution. That cross would have been huge and unbelievably heavy. This guy had a wimpy little cross, with a WHEEL at the bottom to make movement easy peasy. The most obvious symbolism I saw was a Christian trying to make a point about suffering without ACTUALLY suffering in any real way himself. That, IMHO, is how you define hypocrisy.

  • 42. Tracy  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    And let me be clear re: my above post… though I disagree with many of their beliefs, I respect true Christians who practice love and forgiveness in the fashion taught by Jesus — unfortunately, I haven't met many of those. ๐Ÿ™

  • 43. AndrewPDX  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    There are a few true followers of Christ. After how Engle and NOM and these jerks have ruined the term, I wouldn't insult them by calling them 'Christians' any longer.

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 44. Bob  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    @Tracy, you mean you haven't met any in person right!!!!!

    there are a great many on this site, and also at affirming churches like Reverend Russels, at least it sounds like you know what you're looking for, you'll find em.

  • 45. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Yes, the Tote-a-Cross (or U-Haul Cross) was lame.

    Very lame.

  • 46. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    I admit I'd have liked to see him with a toy dog lugging a matching version, though.

  • 47. Kathleen  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    LOL. That would have lightened the mood a bit.

  • 48. Tracy  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    lol – now that would be something to see!

  • 49. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    In fact, Tracy, the Roman cross that Rabbi Yoshua ben Yosef was hung upon was so heavy, that the only part of it he would have been carrying was the piece that went horizontal once it was in place, and that was usually tied across the shoulders of the one carrying it, by tying the wrists to each end of it. then once they reached the site of the execution, the wrists would be nailed to this, and the Roman soldiers would then hoist the beam up high enough to lower it onto the vertical portion, and then nail the feet in place. Death by crucifixion coule take anywhere from a few hours to a week, during which time the one being crucified would slowly smother to death, since the very position he or she was in combined with the nails holding you into one position made breathing rather laborious.

  • 50. Tracy  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Richard, thank you for making my point so well, and with details, too!

  • 51. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Anything to help. In fact, someone else pointed out that the CINO's are the only religious group who worship at an ancient torture device. I myself prefer the imagery of the 23rd Psalm.

  • 52. Steve  |  September 5, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    What I find interesting is that just about all modern crucifixes have the nails through the hands. That would never support anyone's weight for long.

    And I think that they didn't nail everyone to the cross. Just tying them up would also do the job in "less harsher" cases.

  • 53. anonygrl  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:25 am

    And if you were tied rather than nailed, you would probably last longer, since nails would have to go through the wrist to hold your weight, and might well hit crucial veins that would make you bleed to death rather than suffocate.

  • 54. Steve  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:52 am

    True, it would probably take longer even if its less painful. So it's debatable which is better.

    But driving a nail between radius and ulna wouldn't damage any vital blood vessels. The radial artery is off to the side after all. Mostly just nerves and ligaments in the middle.

  • 55. draNgNon  |  September 6, 2010 at 3:15 am

    except, of course, for that little detail where Jesus got this guy Simon to carry it for him, at least in 3 of the 4 official gospels and several unofficial ones.

    and the historical records isn't totally clear that he ever switched back either, some contemporary accounts have him laughing in the crowd as Simon gets crucified, before he escaped to Egypt.

    changes the story quite a bit eh?

  • 56. Lora  |  September 5, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    I was going to point that out too!

  • 57. Rhie  |  September 5, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    Yes. The Bible says the best way to show one's faith is by actions, with no thought of oneself and definitely no self-aggrandizement. This is apparently far too difficult a concept for some people.

    Difficult to understand, I mean. It is legitimately difficult to do.

    I wish you could meet my Grandma. She is one of those people that just radiates love and acceptance. I don't know how to explain it. Walking into her house is like walking into a hug. Faith to her is service, love, grace, and peace. In some very real ways. I owe her my life.

  • 58. Kathleen  |  September 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    What a wonderful thing to say about your Grandma. I'm glad she is there for you. She sounds like a wonderful woman.

  • 59. Ronnie  |  September 10, 2010 at 11:41 am

    LOL…all that went through my head was….."what a drama queen"….hahahah….I called him a queen…your comment is so much better Tracy…<3…Ronnie

  • 60. fern  |  September 11, 2010 at 1:59 am

    Dear Tracy, the Romans had very straight rules about crucifixion, it never was a cross either, it was a T.
    In the holding jail they would be tied up by the arms to a length of wood and carry this to the place of execution.
    This piece of wood would be raised atop another one planted in the ground, their feet would be tied then and their knees broken, they would die from asphyxiation, someone had to pay a soldier, centurion or executioner to have the heart pierced to shorten the suffering, nails were seldom used and then not in the hands but the wrists.
    These executions were entertainment, families would show up with the kids, food vendors were there, they would travel for miles just to see the show.
    I think the last public execution in France was with Landru in the 1920's.

    I loved the wheel on his cross though.
    good day to you.

  • 61. Mike  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    I grew up in Orange County, Southern California. I went to church, and being used to the conservative lifestyle down here in OC, it still BLOWS my mind away when I watch videos like these. I thought this kind of bigotry has been long extinct.

    I would say that people like this are apart of the uneducated masses. Stay in school kids!

  • 62. Alex  |  September 5, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    I live in Orange County. Not all Orange County is conservative like you say it is.

  • 63. bonobo  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:21 pm


  • 64. Bennett  |  September 5, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Is this what passes for a religious gathering theses days? Who goes to a religious gathering without a shirt or wearing a tank tops? Are you sure this wasn't footage from woodstock?

  • 65. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    I do not say this lightely I really don't because even though I do NOT believe in God I hedge on the side of caution in that I may in fact be wrong it sure would not be a first time that is for sure. But after watching the videos of this gathering and the one at Qualcom stadium and him working people up into a frenzy and declaring a Holy War against my family, my wife, my children, my community , people I love and who love me for all of my good and my bad. He has told these people to go out and be Martyrs for the Cause. To be sacrificial lambs in the War he has now declared on me and basically saying if you can't save them kill them. I feel I have EARNED a right as his victim to ask that if there is a God and there is a hell. May God damn his soul to hell forever for what he is unleashing on my community, my family, my people.

    Please forgive grammar and typos as I am extremely angry and yes scared right now. These are young impressionable minds he is playing with. and he telling them to show how much they love God by going out and dying for their cause. Notice he did not offer to be a martyr he asked all of them to be the Martyrs. Someone else did that recently it was Usama Bin Laden. And we label him a terrorist. Why is this guy allowed to declare war on me and still be walking free? Freedom of speech and religion is one thing but this man is calling people to war.

  • 66. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    You write well…that subject woulod make a great article out in the mainstream press. I wonder if you could do a piece somewhere. Because what you're saying is VERY true, and VERY scary, and I think average, everyday people would be interested in looking at the comparisons.

  • 67. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    I have no idea how to go about getting it out in the mainstream. I am no professional writer but I am a Nurse, I hold 3 Bachelor of Science Degrees in Psycholgy, Alcohol & Drug Studies, and Criminal Justice. But I have a gift some might call it a curse to see the real message to hear a different real version of what people are saying and what they are meaning. I also have an amazing gift of being able to debate to stand toe to toe and debate an issue and no fear or possibly cooth to call BS when I see BS. I can scrap, I am a scrappy broad and I actually thoroughly enjoy the debate, and the chalenge of trying to win the argument. I used one simple example during a religious debate and shook three people's faith so bad I no longer use it, because that is not my right to do, but if you attack me with your religious beliefs I will pull it out and use it as a weapon against you to defend myself. I am nobody special I am just me but I LOVE me. LOL

  • 68. Bob  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    Heather, I beg to differ, you are a professional writer, you just have not been plublished yet, keep writing, please

  • 69. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    I love that you're a "scrappy broad". WE NEED MORE!

    Joan of Arc was a scrappy broad. So was Queen Elizabeth I. And now we have our very own, Heather Sheridan. (Glamorous name, BTW!)

  • 70. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    LOl I thought growing up in Missouri it was unusual. But I moved out here to Syracuse a year ago and Sheridan is like Smith and Jones. Go figure. LOL.

  • 71. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:12 pm

    Heather, I beg to differ with you on one thing. YOU ARE SPECIAL! You are a very unique lady, you have been through the fires of hell here on earth and have emerged stronger because of it. You are now here at P8TT and sharing yourself with all of us here, with a family who love you and accept you not only just the way you are, but also because of who you are and who want to get to know you better. And we even have a group on FB, the Prop 8 Trial Trackers. Feel free to join us there, and please send me a friend request. You ARE special, and always remember that. To have lived through what you lived through, and yes, I know what it is like from my own childhood, and to have emerged as strong as you are is amazing! Stick around, we are all here to learn from one another and to share our individual strengths. You fit right in here.

  • 72. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    Admin I totally understand and will not be offended if you feel a need to censor what I wrote. It was a visceral real reaction to having just witnessed a man declairing War on me and declaring my family his enemies when he does NOT even know me or anything about who I am. For the whole I think I am a good person my good outweighs my bad. I have my weaknesses my lovely wife's strengths are my weaknesses and vice versa. I am a fighter not literally unless attacked but if attacked I can defend myself as I have studied Tae Kwon-Do for 25 years and am a 3rd degree black belt. But more importantly I will stand up and I will say what NEEDS to be said niceties be damned. I will be blunt and to the point and you will have no question in your mind where my beliefs lie. I am not Christian, The reason being when I was 16 my Father received a letter of absolution From the Pope absolving him of all of his past sins. Those past sins included severe physical and mental abuse of My Mom, sister, and Myself. Horibble torturous nights of unending terror when we did not know if tonight would be the night that Daddy was actually going to get real drunk and stoned and kill us. But every Saturday evening we went to Catholic Mass, not Sunday Morning because my Father would be sleeping off his bender from the night before and we would have to be real quiet as we cleaned up the mess from the violence that went on the night before.My Father owned the local Funeral Home in a town of 860 people and a second one 20 miles up the road in a town about the same size. It was Not until I was 8 years old and My Mom took me to a Catholic Mass that I realized they were only supposed to be an hour long. You see after the Saturday Mass everyone got in their cars and drove to the local tavern, INCLUDING the Priest, where food and drink kids playing would commence until closing time. We always got scared towards closing time because we knew the stress of having to put on the happy little family show was going to release a fury when we got home, closing time ment fear, would tonight be the night.My Father for the mere sum of $1,200.00 USD received forgiveness for all of this and a "Ticket" to heaven. Oh and the very entertaining part the reason my Father gave many years later to us for all of the violence he bestowed upon us was because he, wait for it.. WAS a HOMOSEXUAL living a lie. I wanted to be nothing like my Father I despised everything about him and still to this day say his name with disdain. But he was my Father, this was my Lot in life.If I truly had a choice do you honestly think I would have chosen to be anything like him? Of and before you get on the genetic bandwagon that may be but NOT from him I am Adopted. He paid for this punching bag and got his money's worth. It is who I am NOT a Lifestyle choice. I struggled for years not to be gay, I hid it from My Mom successfully up until about 8 years ago, because I love My Mother dearly but because of the excuse My Father gave her she was extremely and understandably homophobic. I am very happy to announce she loves my wife dearly and fully accepts us as a family. She and I have had a long journey over these 8 years and we are stronger for it. My Mom had been having an affair with a wonderful Man I call My Dad.I call him Dad because anyone can give sperm or money and become a Father but only a special man can be a Dad. We moved away. This man was a Police officer, and he was kind gentle man, but do NOT attack him or his family because a fury will be unleashed on you.He is the person that put me into Tae Kwon-Do classes when I was 10. He was friends with the instructor and said no childrens classes, teach her how to defend herself she is going to need it. After 2 years in training and me being a rebel without a clue and my Father had become the "Fun" parent I chose to go live with him. I was only there about a week before it happened, He got Mad and struck me with a closed fist in the face and I turned around and knocked him with a single punch over the open dishwasher door onto the floor with one single punch to the face, I stood over him and said You will NEVER hit me again because I KNOW how to kill you now. And you know I scared him, because until his dying day he would cuss me and call me everything but a white woman but he never touched me again, He knew I would make good on my promise. All I remember as a teenager was him being so damn Proud of that Certificate of Absolution and his ticket into Heaven, that when I had his body cremated I threw the damn thing in with him.When my grandmother and my sister and I were sitting discussing his ashes. I told my Grandmother you can take my share and flush them down the toilet for all I care, I did my responsibility as his daughter, I have no more responsibility to care for that Son of a Bitch anymore. That was the last day I talked to my grandmother as I truly meant he was the Son of a Bitch. I left her sitting there mouth gaping in horror and never looked back. I feel the RCC completely for a small sum of money said that the horror he put my family through was ok, because he did his penance. He never once apologized to me for what he did, only gave excuses. The Church, the Priest they all betrayed me and said my horror did not matter. By God it mattered to ME.. And no amount of money was going to fix the scars on my body that I have. The memories I have. Oh and his whole thing the whole time I was a teenager is he suspected I was gay and pulled out all the stops to try to get the "Proof" so he could hurt my Mom with the news I was exactly like him. He went so far as to have a couple of his female lesbian friends kiss me to see if they got a "positive" reaction out of me. Having the feelings I was having, trying to hide them, and then being ambushed by women I found attractive and fakely having to respond in horror and disgust when indeed I was excited, were there own form of abuse. Oh I finally told him, The night he died I am a Nurse, I could see that with his vital sihns and his sudden consciousness after having been unconscious ment the end was near, I asked for a private moment to tell My Father good bye. When everyone left I leaned in real close and said By the way Dad you were Right I am a huge, HUGE Dyke. And now you are going to die in a few minutes with the knowledge you always wanted and not being able to do a damn thing with it to hurt My Mom. You will NEVER hurt My family again, burn in hell you son of a bitch. He looked at me with hatred in his eyes, I simply walked out of the room and told everyone to go say their goodbyes. And I went down and smoked a cigarette felling almost completely free of that SOB. Not completely free because for years he told me exactly what he wanted for a memorial service, and that he wanted to be cremated. He always threatened me if I did not do it exactly as he wanted he would come back and haunt me. I did everything he asked for, My father was a retired mortician so I called our friend when I realised he was not going to make it, And made all the plans exactly as they were supposed to be. Had the Memorial service and went to the crematorium after the service with his body and helped load it into the furnace and through in the Certificate of Absolution. Once the oven lid closed and the button was pushed My responsibilities as his daughter were paid in full. I walked away with an amazing freeing feeling, I felt 100 lbs lighter, I actually walked with pep in my step. I was Happy. I am sorry this story is long but it is how I lost my faith in The RCC and it is a part of my story, there is alot more. LOL. Sorry if my story is a little morbid but having grown up in the family business and working alongside My Father since I could remember, I was going to see him the whole way through the process to make sure it was done exactly the way he wanted it.

  • 73. Bob  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    Heather, that story needed to be told, and hopefully even in it's entirety,

    It's powerfull, and you my friend are a hero, thanks for telling your truth. I'm humbled

    it's also clear that you have found your self, through the trauma, and you are strong

  • 74. AndrewPDX  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:17 pm


    Thank you for sharing your powerful story. I don't know if I could have survived such conditions; you are a much stronger person than I am.

    I can only imagine how much better your life, your mom's life, and your father's life would have been if the church could have allowed your father to be true to himself. Instead, he denied his true nature, and look at all the harm that caused. And they dare to claim they're trying to help? Puh-lease, the only thing many organized religions seem to care about helping is helping themselves to our money.

    Words cannot describe how much I wish we could wave our collective fairy wands and make it all better for you. Instead, I can only offer you a virtual cookie, some (Harvey) MILK, and a cyber-hug.

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 75. Carpool Cookie  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Wow. Thanks for telling us about that. I really do think you have talent as a writer, if you're interested in that. VERY evocative…..not that it's worth it to have had to gone through that (!)

    Jeez…even though I was depressed a lot as a teen and have problems with my dad, at least it wasn't as extreme as your childhood. I'm glad you were able to make it through. Those experiences would really have crushed lots of other people, crushed them beyond repair.

    I'm so glad you've been able to make happy relationships for yourself, as a grown up. And that you've even been able to rebuild your relationship with your mom. I'm impressed.

  • 76. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Thank you for the kind words mind you I am NOT a victim I have never seen myself as a victim. I am a survivor. There is a huge difference.

  • 77. Franck  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Many of us had real bad experiences with the RCC, Heather, but yours definitely tops whatever I've heard for now. Props for getting through it all and growing stronger, and thanks for sharing!

    My experience? Not as bad as that. My parents sought counseling with our priest about patching up their marriage, and he did it so well they ended up divorcing one year earlier than they expected to.

    How did he do that? Simple. He read all their letters in public. He stood in the House of God and divulged my parent's most personal secrets to the whole congregation just because he was having a power trip and my mother stood in his way. The kicker? His hierarchy stood behind him despite him doing similar things to other people – they took no measures to curb his behavior until my mother threatened to sue him for defamation and half the neighborhood openly supported her.

    I stayed in the Church long enough to bring him down. Once I got that (so far unbeaten) satisfaction, I never came back again.

    – Franck P. Rabeson
    Days spent apart from my fiancé because of DOMA: 1172 days, as of today.

  • 78. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    For those that are interested here is a link to my facebook profile.!/profile.php?i

  • 79. Steve  |  September 5, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    The Catholic Church is still doing that shit? WHAT!?! That's exactly the reason the Protestants split from them 500 years ago and they are still at it? I had no idea ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

  • 80. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:05 pm

    Heather, please share this story. People everywhere need to see and hear your strength, and every time you share it, the few demons from the past that remain will be further removed from you and will lose any negative power they have left, while at the same time, your already great strength will increase even more. You are very strong already, and I only see you growing stronger. Look forward to meeting you in person. Until then, pull up a chair, grab some of the goodies floating around here, and just be yourself while you enjoy time with the P8TT family.

  • 81. Sagesse  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:06 am


    "Thank you for the kind words mind you I am NOT a victim I have never seen myself as a victim. I am a survivor. There is a huge difference."

    If you could find a way to take that spirit and bottle it, many young people could be spared the self-loathing and self-destructive urges that these so-called Christians beat into them. I hope these lost LGBT youth can find a little of your strength.

  • 82. draNgNon  |  September 6, 2010 at 3:38 am

    holy crap. I read your story aloud to my partner, who had an abusive father when she was young. fortunately for her, the entire family grew out of it, but she also learned martial arts against such an eventuality…

    Heather, kudos and much respect to you. I know, nobody wants to hear "kudos" for their life choices, who am I to judge good or bad, but I can't help it, thanks much for sharing this story.

  • 83. Ann S.  |  September 6, 2010 at 4:28 am

    Heather, your story is both blood-curdling and redeeming. Thank goodness you are the strong person you are. Thank you so much for sharing it.

  • 84. BK  |  September 7, 2010 at 3:57 am

    And whenever we feel that we have gone through too much… there are others out there who have gone through worse. I could never understand your pain and suffering, but I can tell you how grateful I am to see that you have, as you put it, survived all this. Thank you for sharing your story.

  • 85. Lora  |  September 5, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    That 3rd video looks more drug induced than any Woodstock footage that I've ever seen! That was bizarre and scary!

  • 86. Tracy  |  September 5, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Thanks to Richard, I found the following — very fascinating and compelling — website:

    This website goes into great depth to explain how the Christian church has evolved to what it is today — and it influences my own beliefs in a big way.

    I highly recommend taking a look.

  • 87. HunterR.  |  September 5, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    In case you all need something uplifting this is a great story, full of facts and heart….

    Open Letter To Pastor Joshua Beckley: On His Petition To Force CA To Defend Prop 8, Gay Black Folks, And The Black Family

  • 88. Sagesse  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:53 am

    It's all about family, families.

  • 89. RENWL  |  September 7, 2010 at 12:03 am


    Thank you so much for posting RENWL's Open Letter To Pastor Beckley. He did in fact respond. We posted it this morning.

    We hope you enjoy his response as much as we did. We're looking forward to the next chapter in this adventure with Pastor Beckley. Thank you again.


  • 90. Bob  |  September 5, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    on the subject of stories, the other writer I really like is bJason, are you ready to share more of your story, just waiting and hoping to hear more from you cheers Bob

  • 91. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  September 5, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    To all of the new people or lurkers who have shared, thank you so much for feeling free to share with us. You are our family also and we hope you will stick around and continue to share.

    Totally OT, but one of my son's frustrations is that the is having a difficult time finding other gays who share his love of sports, being a spectator. He asked me to ask the group if he is unusual in his enthusiasm for sports as a spectator. So, any comments on this?


    Sheryl, Mormon Mother

  • 92. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 9:26 pm


    I love watching Mizzou college footbal, and KC Chief Football I can have a great time watching an epic battle on the field and also appreciate a great effort to a stronger opponent. Rooting for my teams the whole way. Sadly since I now live in New York, I can only listen to Mizzou Football on the radio and occassionally catch a Chiefs game. Man I never thought I would say this but I miss Missouri.

  • 93. elliom  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:18 am

    Go Tigers (Hurray, Hurrah, Mizzou, Mizzou)!

    Myself, like to catch the occasional Mizzou b-ball game, and, of course, Lady Tiger's gymnastics.

    Also, gotta love the Olympics (diving, gymnastics, skiing, figure skating).

    I've known plenty of "gay guys" who LOVE sports. Nothing unusual there at all.

  • 94. elliom  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:25 am

    [youtube =]

    They left it off sooo….


  • 95. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:26 am

    Sheryl, your son is not unusual in his enjoyment of sports as a spectator. However, we have been so mistrained by our culture's stereotypes of gay man and gay women that many of us don't feel comfortable being open about enjoying sports. That being said, it is not only figure skating and ice dancing that have a lot of gays who are not only spectators but also athletes. There are gays men and women in every sport.

  • 96. AndrewPDX  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:34 am

    No, he's not unusual at all to love sports. Just like everything else, we're all diverse people, not really beholden to the stereotypes.

    As for me, I love watching most sports but I don't go hog-wild crazy and paint myself up in team colors or go on a rampage when my team wins the super bowl. I'm more a fan of the sport than an individual team or player.
    Tho that may change next year when the Portland Timbers get into Major League Soccer ๐Ÿ™‚

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 97. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  September 6, 2010 at 4:31 am

    Thanks, Andrew and everyone else who answered. I will certainly pass on to him that he is not unusual for enjoying being a sports spectator. Now, to a related question, from me not him, how does one go about finding these other same-minded gays?


  • 98. Dpeck  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:26 am

    Hi Sheryl,

    There are many LGBT social groups here in the bay area dedicated to various activities like this. Watching the games, participating in them (lots of gay baseball teams etc), numerous outdoor activities like bike riding, kayaking, hiking, etc. Where is he located? This may help us find him some links.

  • 99. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  September 6, 2010 at 7:37 am

    Thanks, he lives in SF. He's not so much into participating as he is watching. Major SF Giants fan (has a Panda hat but doesn't not paint himself in team colors), also enjoys watching other sports. He was never into bike riding or hiking, of course many years since he has lived at home and mom really know what he does in his spare time. Please post the social groups and I will pass along to him.

    Again, looking forward to all you who can come meeting him when we do the Improv get together. As soon as shows are set for Oct. and Nov. he will let me know when he is performing.

    Sheryl, Mormon Mother

  • 100. Dpeck  |  September 7, 2010 at 2:41 am

    Hmm… A quick search found lots of LGBT social groups for various outdoor activities, but not so much for spectator sports… I'll let you know if I find something, but a suggestion for him would be to check the 'Activities Calendar' sections near the back of the weekly Bay Times and B.A.R. newspapers. I think I've seen some mention of groups going to the Giants games.

  • 101. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    You know what we need, we need our own National Tout to tell our stories ti kids to tell of our struggles to fight who we actually were and to let them know you are who you are and you are great they way you are. You do not have to try and change something about you for us to love and accept you. If you believe in God GREAT, if you don't believe in God GREAT, if you do not know come join us talk to us get know us and see if some of what we have to say strikes a chord of YOUR own truth ringing in your Heart. We love and accept all as long and if you can not love yourself just yet well we will love you until you do, and show you what is good about you. You are who you are and we welcome that. That is what we need.

  • 102. Heather Sheridan  |  September 5, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    You know when I was watching the video and saw the frantic swaying and prclaimed and the faster rocking and the louder proclaiming I knew I had seen it somewhere before and it was truly bothering me on where I had seen it or heard about it. Then it struck me like a lightening bolt. It is exactly what the suicide bombers do before they blow themselves up. They sway and they chant ( I apologize in advance I am going to butcher this) Allah auqba. God is great! They start slow and low and get faster and louder working themselves into their own frenzy until boom, they push the button. Scary very scary that he would be teaching these young kids who are only looking for love and acceptance the exact ritual that the suicide bombers use to become a martyr, after he has already declared a holy war, and asked for a martyr movement.

  • 103. truthspew  |  September 5, 2010 at 11:59 pm

    When I watched that second video the thought that ran through my mind was "Like not seeing any religion in the public sphere would be a bad thing?"

  • 104. Steve  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:06 am

    Religion is like a penis:
    It's fine to have one.
    It's fine to be proud of it.
    But don't whip it out in public and start waving it around.
    And please don't try to shove it down my childrens' throats.

  • 105. BradK  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:40 am


  • 106. AndrewPDX  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:20 am


    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 107. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:40 am

    Okay, Steve, you have just given me a GREAT idea for a t-shirt/bumper sticker/baseball cap set! Not to mention a book idea, and a huge belly laugh for two gay Jews in North Carolina! Thanks!

  • 108. Ronnie  |  September 10, 2010 at 11:44 am


  • 109. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 10, 2010 at 11:48 am

    Ronnie, what a mild reaction this is from you! I am shocked! What, no song to celebrate the great roars of laughter this gave you?

  • 110. Ronnie  |  September 10, 2010 at 11:56 am

    LOL…nothing that would be appropriate….<3…Ronnie

  • 111. AndrewPDX  |  September 10, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    @Ronnie & Richard… while it may be NSFW and not quite G-rated… here's a related Monty Python song for ya:

    [youtube =]

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 112. MJFargo  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:35 am

    My "favorite" moment was one of self-realization from two of the participants who were quoted in the Sacramento Bee:

    "Ken and Antoinette Rodrigues, who described themselves as born-again Christians, drove in from Fremont to attend …

    "It's a little more blunt than I anticipated, not that I'm opposed to that, but the things they are speaking, it's bold, very bold," said Antoinette Rodrigues…."

    I'm pleased that this "bluntness" was on display because it drew the lines rather clearly. I'm proud that our Governor and Attorney General chose the side they did.

  • 113. Bolt  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:45 am

    Jesus in San Francisco:
    [youtube =]

    Gym Bunny Jesus is over the top.

  • 114. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:55 am

    Somebody should send this to Maggie, Brian, and Louis!

  • 115. Bennett  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    No. somebody should take this down. No justification for this level of mockery period. It kind of make me sorry for enjoying the cartoons of the prophet Mohammad.

  • 116. New  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:06 am

    That's the best analogy ever!!

  • 117. Sagesse  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:14 am

    The latest from Peter Sprigg at the Family Research Council. A familiar refrain.

    Is the Religious Right After Another Gay Obama Appointee?

  • 118. Sagesse  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:19 am

    The previous post is what we're used to seeing from Peter Sprigg and his colleagues at the Family Research Council. This next article is different. It lacks the usual outraged hyperbole. In it, Sprigg lays out in a surprisingly logical way the Prop 8 position on children and schools 'teaching gay marriage'. The arguments are flawed, but are laid out in a way that they can be deconstructed and rebutted.

    Prop 8 Judge's Attack on Parental Rights and Religious Liberty

  • 119. Kathleen  |  September 6, 2010 at 3:38 am

    Well, they're certainly clear about one of their fears of the consequences of putting a stop to institutional discrimination against a group of people. One could say exactly the same thing about the overwhelming number of people who used religion as a justification for discriminating against racial minorities.

    And my answer to both is the same. You're welcome to teach your children that your religion justifies this discrimination. And if you don't want your children exposed to the message of social equality that is taught in public schools, school them at home or send them to a private religious school which takes no public funds.

    I think you do your children a terrible disservice by teaching them these views, but the First Amendment protects your right to turn your children into bigots. Just don't expect the public schools to be complicit in passing along this bigotry.

  • 120. Rose  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:24 am


    Okay. I started following Prop 8 trial tracker because I wanted to know about the Prop 8 trial (because it directly affects me because I want to get married to my same-sex partner). NOT all this other stuff. Is there another blog that's _just_ following the trial that someone can point me at?

    I'm not interested in what the Christian right is doing in their stupid spare time. I'm a full-time pre-med student, I don't have the TIME to follow it even if I was interested.

    So can someone help me out here? Where can I get my Prop 8 news without all this other cruft?

  • 121. MJFargo  |  September 6, 2010 at 1:31 am

    You do understand that what the "Christian right is doing in their stupid spare time" is directly related to Prop 8? But if it's not your thing, while we're waiting for the filings for the appeal, I'd just skip the articles that are very well-labed as to their content.

  • 122. elliom  |  September 6, 2010 at 2:04 am


    MJFargo is right. Unfortunately, all this ties together, and it's not easy to separate the trial from everything else. That, and even at the expedite rate, the trial is still going to take quite some time, and that'd leave long holes on the blogs where nothing chages.

    You might want to check out some of the links under "blogroll" and "organizations" that're in the right-hand column. Some of those have more direct trial coverage, without a lot of other stuff.

    Good luck!

  • 123. Rose  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:57 am

    I'd be perfectly happy with long holes in the blog. ๐Ÿ™‚ I came here for the trial news, not anything else….there are plenty of other blogs that cover that other stuff (e.g., Pam's).

  • 124. Kathleen  |  September 6, 2010 at 3:48 am

    Rose, whenever anything comes along that is directly related to the trial, P8TT posts it. I can't think of any developments that weren't posted and discussed here.

    But at the moment, there's nothing going on wrt the case, at least not in the public view (you can bet the legal teams are very busy right now).

    The first briefs are due in the appeal on Sept 17. In the meantime, there have been attempts, legal and political, to pressure Brown and Schwarzenegger to appeal on behalf of the state. Those attempts have been reported and discussed here.

    At this point, most topics to do with the case would just be a rehashing of the same things that have been discussed many times before (questions of standing, whether the state must appeal, etc.)

    As others have suggested, you might want to just skip the topics that don't interest you.

  • 125. draNgNon  |  September 6, 2010 at 4:02 am might have some stuff but it will be behind this blog.… is more complete but they will only update it once they have official records.

    Kathleen's scribed account might be something to watch, and you could follow this blog via a news reader or @CourageCampaign on Twitter and only click through on the posts that are interesting/relevant.

    …I too would rather have some more focus on the legal fights than picking on the Christian right, but I understand the reasoning. someone has to have the courage to call them on what they are doing (no pun intended). but I would think it great to have a blog that not only followed the prop 8 fight, but the cases in Massachussetts that are at a similiar stage in the Federal court system but fighting a slightly different battle. those cases have to be won too, for marriage in California to be anything other than declaring the right to pay the Federal Government way more taxes.

  • 126. draNgNon  |  September 6, 2010 at 4:03 am

    er "same-sex marriage in California". "opposite-sex marriage in California" already has the right to pay way more Federal taxes, at least until the procreation starts.

  • 127. Rose  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:59 am

    Thanks for the suggestions. ๐Ÿ™‚

    I think other blogs, like Pam's House Blend and Rob's Waking Up Now, do a good enough job of calling out the Christian Right.

    Glad to see I'm not alone in this.

  • 128. Carpool Cookie  |  September 6, 2010 at 7:10 am

    Discussing the Christian Right is invaluable, as you must know what the other side's doing, and where they're coming from. It's all connected.

    Plus, we're going to be left with a cultural fallout from the Christian Right putting Prop H8 in motion…and then we'll have to mend bridges and do our part to help them heal. So I'm not sure you can seperate Prop H8 from Overly Zealous Christianity.

  • 129. Sagesse  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:35 am


    I understand your time is valuable, and each of us gets to set our own priorities at whatever time in our lives, to choose how we will stay current and contribute to the issues that are important to us. My best suggestion to you, since the quality of the analysis here is exceptional, is to subscribe for new posts, and when the trial-related appeal activity heats up again, subscribe to the e-mail feed for the posts that interest you.

  • 130. Bob  |  September 6, 2010 at 2:49 am

    @Rose, patience hon, I know you want to ignore the ugly truth, and we all have been disgusted by recent blogs about the religious right, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't even be following a tial to begin with, they are our only enemy,

    the last few days reading opened old wounds, and ugliness, either you were never affected by that, or you are in denial.

    I'm glad you are a full time med student, and times a wasting when it could be spent on studies, but this here reading that you're avoiding could be of hudge value to your ability to empathize when practicing medicine. At least you will have an idea of where some peoples pain and psychological truama stems from. humanity is in the process of healing from generations of these lies. Shocking that a med student couldn't see the value in that,

    And sorry to say this but you will not find a better site to follow the prop8 trial, this site was built for that purpose, and because of it we have documentation of the actual court case, unprecedented in human history, the battle against the religious right.

    In the process of blogging daily about the trial, they realized the necessity to go further and delve into our enemy's camp, we are learning how they are positioning themselves on the political battleground, and that info is valid for those people who excercise their right to vote, and use that as a tool to assist us down the road.

    Further, this site also folllows other court cases, DADT, ENDA, DOMA, not only does it follow with current updates, but we also have trained legal eagles to help us decipher the meaning of the legal jargon, now I'm sure a med student could see the benefit of that type of legal expertise, volunteered by professionals, sort of like Dr.s without borders, volunteer their knowledge , maybe someday you'll have the opportunity to do that.

    AS the poster above suggested if the daily title or subject matter doesn't interest you , skip it, or find another blog, but that's like getting your rights while someone else works for them, don't think you'd enjoy your practicum time spent in Emerg, you'd probably be better writing scripts in a nice clean office somewhere.

    This site is known for the full story, unedited, it comes with the messy reality of a struggle to end discrimination, so you can one day read the headlines, and rejoice in our victory having the right to marry your love, keeping your nose in the books, only gives you one side of your education.

  • 131. Rose  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:56 am

    Pre-med, not med. Very, very different. Also, a psychology major. You're assuming one hell of a lot about me, and getting it very wrong, and being very insulting.

    I make change in my own way and in my own time, which doesn't mesh with the GLBT activist way of "change". So while I understand that you're trying to get me to be more active…that's not going to happen. There's a lot of rhetoric that I find intensely unappealing here and in the larger GLBT community, and I don't want to be near it. E.g., the idea of the Christian Right as "THE ENEMY' – I don't think we'll win hearts and minds with that, and I think the way to "win" is to do just that. I don't think this is a battle in the traditional sense, and I don't think it's helpful to think of it that way.

    I want the legal analysis – I love that! What I don't want is to hear every little slight towards gay/lesbian folk, nor do I want to hear the GLBT community mocking other people. If I wanted that, I'd follow Pam's.

    I was asking because I want to find another blog. Can't do that in a vacuum.

  • 132. Bob  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:13 am

    Rose, so right, you can't do it in a vacuum, that's why we're all coming together to share life experience, ideas, and be visible to ourselves in our diversity, which includes differences in ideologies, and as you say, different ways to find a solution, or win.

    Glad you were able to take some time to express your point in a little more detail, your initial post was just as insulting as you say mine was in return.

    Can you expand on your ideas about winning hearts and minds, and arrive at the WIN we're heading for.

    Come on, being a pre med psych major, brings some education along with your personal input, it's valued.

  • 133. MJFargo  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:41 am

    Rose, I empathize with your point of view. I'm an older person in this community and I am–perhaps–more conservative in my methods and views than many. I learned however through experience that all have something to contribute and have learned to embrace the more outspoken members of the GLBT community at large, hoping they can accept my more moderate approach.

    Dating myself, Act Up wasn't how I would have chosen to confront the crises in AIDS/HIV care, but I am grateful for the role they played. That is, there isn't just one particular way to approach the problems GLBT people face.

    Too, I wince when people mock or make fun of others. I had my share of being made fun of myself, and if unrealistic, I try to "do unto others." Others push back, and I've also learned to realize there's place for that.

    "The Christian Right" is not a specific group or organization. Ted Olson, I'm sure, would place himself in that group, but look what he's done for GLBT folks. The people, however, in Sacramento this weekend fall into a category of their own. And they are the enemy. And they vote. We need to face that fact and counter it.

    As to the articles here that are more tangential to Perry v Schwarzenegger, I've learned to skim through them and actually find various posts and links in those discussions very helpful. Tolerance isn't just about learning to live with "the enemy"; we sometimes need to tolerate our allies and compatriots. And I'm addressing this as much to myself as to you.

  • 134. Rose  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:34 am

    Apparently I can't reply directly to you, Bob, or you, MJ, so I'll respond here and hope you see it.

    I do apologize for the tone of my first post. I was rather irritable and unpleasant this morning.

    I don't generally have a lot of emotional energy to spare. I've had personal problems in the past that mean that my own mental health HAS to come first. So the change I try to create is in my everyday interactions with people. I'm completely out of the closet, and I educate one-on-one a LOT. I try to change hearts and minds one person at a time. I've generally found that most people who are prejudiced do so out of ignorance, and that knowing someone who's friendly, honest, and open and being able to ask questions can do a lot.

    As a note: my experiences with the gay/lesbian community has generally been negative. Biphobia = not nice. ๐Ÿ™

    Also as a note: Long-term, when I get my MD, I plan to make a special effort to be a good doctor for all the sexual minority communities. I plan to join the GLMA as well, and try to educate my fellow doctors, medical students, and pre-meds about the various health issues in sexual minority communities.

    Thank you. I definitely understand how it feels to not fit into the queer community.

    My experience leads me to believe it's not so much the "crazies" like NOM that are the enemy…it's the ignorance and fear they create…..if that makes sense.

    And yes, I definitely see your point about skimming. I just find it very depressing to see a lot of the things that are flying back and forth. ๐Ÿ™

  • 135. Rhie  |  September 6, 2010 at 11:10 am

    Hey — glad I caught the whole exchange before responding. I definitely get you now. There are days when I can't read any of this stuff either and just need to go look at funny cats on

    Good luck with your studies! I really mean that. We need good psychologists, oh boy do we.

    I also get the biphobia and misunderstandings from both sides. "but you HAVE to be straight! You have a boyfriend!". That's not how it works, of course, and can get irritating to try to explain that over and over.

    But, yes, if you are looking for just the court documents, I would suggest AFER's website. The arguments the Prop 8 proponents bring are quite…extraordinary.

  • 136. Kathleen  |  September 6, 2010 at 11:22 am

    AFER doesn't publish everything, though they're the best source for transcripts of the trial and pre-trial hearings.

    Justia has most of the court filings, though they are sometimes inaccurate or incomplete

    I began uploading court filings to my Scribd account in late April; anything from that date forward, you can find there:

    If there's anything you want that you can't find at one of the three places, let me know and I'll get it for you.

  • 137. fern  |  September 6, 2010 at 5:07 am

    Had he changed all that water into Jack Daniels I woulda been there and so would be many others 'believers'.
    Sad come to think of it even the homeless didn't show up and tried to squat the porta-poops.
    I loved California so much I even visited the Santa Monica drunk tank, they almost apologized for keeping me there for 4 hours and after the names I called them I was surprised but come to think of it a U.S. diplomatic passport is the same red as a Belgian one.
    Why I won't return ever to California is that smoking cigarettes is worse than being homosexual.

  • 138. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:44 am

    Lurked here'bouts sine the start of the trial. Never posted 'cause I were too busy readin' all y'all's comments and truth be knowed – can't type well and usually burn out a high end spell check thingy once't a month. Anyway here's some info 'bout me:

    I'm an older, blue eyed, myopic, shaven bald, arthritic, spinal fused, chain smoking, coffee drinking, diabetic, Stetson topped, boot shod, pickup driving, coupled, sorta self employed, full bearded, cool, music loving, literate, white, gay Irish-American geek with no thyroid gland and carpal tunnel syndrome, wearing jeans and pearl snap shirts. Throw in an earring or three, a few rings, a couple of big silver buckles, several lizard belts, and a taste for Tex-Mex food…….

    EEEEEEEhaaaaaah! Hot Damn! I'm my very own special interest minority group. Do y'all think there might be a Federal program out there to protect me? I'm at least as rare as the spotted owl or the California pup fish, don't ya think? And, damn near as lovable! I'll have to look into that come Monday.

    Someone who's comfortable in his own skin. Someone who understands growin' older is mandatory, growin' up is optional. A man, fully growed.

    Oh yeah; got a bit o' a comin' out story I put up for a friend. Any place specific I should post it?

  • 139. Ann S.  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:51 am

    I can't wait. Sounds fascinating.

  • 140. Rhie  |  September 6, 2010 at 11:01 am

    Heh well, I'm a woman. I consider myself more of an ally than part of the LGBT since people see me with a guy and consider me straight, even though I am not.

    Been called worse than son, though :). I have a male cat, Persian and Manx so has a stubby little tail, like a deer, only he's grey. And yea, he is very relaxing when he purrs :). Very skittish though, and I have some funny stories about that.

  • 141. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 11:18 am

    Rhie: My apologies. I claim a senior moment; but I do apologize. The three of ya be happy, healthy, and good to each other.

  • 142. Rhie  |  September 6, 2010 at 7:53 am

    Howdy! And yes, I read your comment in a Texas drawl. I hope I got it right, heh.

    It just goes to show…I'm 28, Bi, living with a boyfriend & cat, a "damn Yankee", and settled in WA state. Yet, here we are, fighting the good fight together, in our own ways ๐Ÿ™‚

  • 143. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:32 am

    Rhie: A North Texas drawl'll do just fine. 28! Son, I got boots and britches older'n that. We got a cat too; copper-eyed, calico Manx who deigns to allow us to keep her in a style she requires. She do make the most wonderful purry noises though. Very relaxin'.

  • 144. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 7:56 am

    Anywhere here is fine, but there was a thread a couple of days ago that dealt specifically with coming out. Here's the link:

    Even so, please post it on this thread also, to increase the odds of us reading it. And thanks for being part of the P8TT family, where differences and uniqueness are celebrated. Pull up a chair and grab some cookies and MILK, coffee, challah bread, or whatever else you see on the plates and trays that grabs your fancy.

  • 145. Rhie  |  September 6, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Oh it's ok Furface. ๐Ÿ™‚ I also found your story very moving – wish everyone could have acceptance. I haven't even tried to tell Mom, who is still having trouble with the whole "living in sin" of my boyfriend and me. We will get married, eventually, probably. Just don't see the rush.

  • 146. Bob  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:47 am

    Right here would be just fine, let er rip!!!!!!!!

  • 147. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:49 am

    I can't remember, or mismember, if I ever posted my story before. I'll claim a senior moment and throw it out for all y'alls consideration, and maybe edification. (For the young'ns here'bouts I be 63- the ole dawg here far as I know. ๐Ÿ˜€ ) The following was excerpted from a piece I wrote for someone who needed a potential on-line mentor for a straight/gay high school group he was running.

    === Like the euphonious narrator from David Copperfield, I don't know if I shall be the hero of my own story. Nor am I exactly sure what to tell you about my life up to this point. I think a quick overview is probably best; broad strokes with little detail for now.

    I am the first born of six in an Irish Catholic family. My Dad was born and raised in Washington, DC; and Mom came from Philadelphia, but spent most of her life in Washington also. He a career SAR pilot for the U.S. Coast Guard. She was a stay at home mom. Yes, children it did actually happen back in the dark ages.

    The family was transferred every 22 months while I was growing up. That explains all the different residences and schools (16 at last count). That may also explain while the potential trauma of being gay wasn't overpowering for me. I was always the new kid. More about that later.

    I always knew I was different from most other kids, but it didn't come into focus how different until the onset of puberty and the obligatory "birds and bees" lecture series. Very awkward in my household as my mother was the primary lecturer. My Dad made only the occasional guest appearance when his flight schedule and duties permitted. It was toward the end of the lecture series that I realized, even in the throes of that hormonal maelstrom, what my Mom was explaining to me didn't agree with how I felt and reacted.

    Females, girls, women didn't trigger any reaction. They still don't. Males, boys, men on the other hand; "wood" doesn't begin to describe the resulting reaction. Research at the library, thanks for Encyclopaedia Britannica, led me to realize I was homosexual. Gay wasn't in the popular lexicon then, 1959/60.

    My Mom and I had a very trusting relationship. I could ask anything and get an answer. So, being trusting and not a little naive, I told he how I felt. Bad decision! This ole boy has been knowed to be bright as a box of rocks on occasion. To this day, some 45+ years later, the image of her face marked with shock, pain, and confusion, is deeply etched in my memory. She began to tear up, leaned over, kissed me on the forehead, and went quickly to her bedroom.

    I ran out of the house, climbed as high as I could in a tree, and cried. Great wracking sobs. I had no real idea what I had just done, but her reaction tore at me. The next week to 10 days was cool and tense to say the least. Then we had another awkward talk.

    She told me she didn't understand, but she'd try. She didn't approve and likely wouldn't change her mind on that. She gave me a pamphlet on homosexuality. The pages were laced with the claptrap of the day. I never did find out how and where she got that thing. Then the coup de main, she told me she loved me and that would never change. The mutual water works opened, big time. You need to understand that then homosexuality was universally, in the U.S. at least, illegal and officially listed as a mental illness. Why I wasn't dragged off to the doctor and/or the parish priest to be "cured" and counseled, I don't know.

    We never discussed it directly again. While there were the oblique questions over the years. "Are you happy?", "Are you seeing anyone?", and the like; there were never any about finding a girlfriend, marriage, grandchildren, etc. Mom never did come to understand, but then I don't really understand. I just know. She did come to accept; and till the day she died her love, pride, and support never wavered. How I miss that tiny, tough, sweet old bat. ("Old bat" was a special pet name I used with/for her. She actually loved it.)

    I never had any discussion about my sexuality with my Dad. He knew, there were never any secrets between my mother and him. He was conservative, military, and very old school; and you just didn't talk about that sort of thing. I knew he felt the same emotions my Mom had, but he couldn't say anything about it. I knew he loved and supported me. It wasn't until a year after Mom died that he could bring himself to actually tell me he loved me, supported me, and was so proud of the man I had become. Other than my Mom's funeral that was the only time I'd seen him cry.

    He's gone now just over ten years and I miss him. Hell, I miss 'em both. My brothers and sisters have never made a thing of my "gaiety". They grew up with it and it was just part of who I was, and am. I'm sure I was an occasional embarrassment for them. But that's part of the job description for a big brother.

    Some of my nieces and nephews know I'm gay. The arrangement I have with their parents is straightforward. I won't bring it up, but if they do ask, they'll get the truth, age appropriate of course. It works for them, and for me. And now there are great nieces and nephews to deal with. They are a right fecund group.

    I've never been "in the closet". I've hugged the wall and pressed into a niche a time or three, but never the closet. I live my life out. The fact that I have had the acceptance, love, and support of my family, and later my friends, has allowed me not to feel the need to hide who I am. The fact that I don't have any of the stereotypical gay traits hasn't made me live that double life many gays must endure. No sashay, no talking with my hands like an Italian with two broken wrists, no lisp or speech pattern like Christopher Lowell or Paul Lynde, no drama. I have the fashion sense of a cabbage. I'm not tidy. I dance with the grace of a drunken armadillo. This is not say I haven't been circumspect.

    I've lived through some tumultuous decades. Times where being gay was guaranteed to get you beaten, arrested, and maybe killed. Near 20 years where I were 'officially' mentally ill per the DSM. But the question rarely came up and when it did I answered truthfully. Though I didn't volunteer any information and certainly no details. Still don't. It's no one's business but mine. Because of the actions of those who came before me, in the family, my family and friends' support. The horror stories I heard from other gays. The pain I've seen inflicted on people, especially young people, for something they had no choice in and no control over. The tragedies like teen suicide. Because of all those things and more I've taken on a policy of paying forward where I can. I feel it would be dishonest of me, and dishonor the lives and memories of those who have helped me over the years, not to extend my hand and a half to help folks get comfortable in their own skin. To be the happy healthy folks they deserve to be. Real people, fully growed. I mentor; not in the formal sense like Big Brothers/Big Sisters or through an organization. Just one on one. Someone needs a kind word. An ear to listen, a shoulder to cry on, someone to vent to, a sounding board, or a "Dutch" uncle. I see it and take the chance to make myself available. It costs me nothing other than some time and repays a thousand fold. ===

    Questions answered, comments always welcome, flames gleefully ignored. Y'all be good to yourselfs, now. Ya hear! ๐Ÿ˜€

    Oh, one other thing – If'n ya can't be a good role model; ya can at least serve as a horrible example.

  • 148. Kathleen  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:57 am

    I found your story deeply moving–certainly brought up the tears. Thank you for sharing it.

  • 149. Ann S.  |  September 6, 2010 at 7:03 am

    Thank you for that. Great story, very moving, and I love your writing style. I hope you will post more.

  • 150. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:26 am

    [Hangs head and idly pushes pebbles with boot toe while blushin'] Kathleen and Ann S., Thank the both of ya. Weren't my intent to get folks all weepy, just share a story to let the youngin's know it's not always shoutin' and rejection when ya share that most private nugget of information.

  • 151. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:04 am

    Thank you, Furface. Your story is so very moving, and like Kathleen, the tears have come for me also. Just one more reason for me to continue fighting until we all have full equality. And if you are ever in the Fayetteville/Ft. Bragg area of North Carolina, stop ion and see us. Always glad to have more friends.

  • 152. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Shalom Richard! Born in Elizabeth City 1947. Don't get to the coast much any more. That said – if we get to the area I'll be sure to look for ya.

  • 153. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:37 am

    BZ was born at the Navy Officer's hospital in San Diego in November of 1947. So where do you live now? We may by some miracle have the time and all to travel at some point, and we may come looking for you. Looking forward to meeting everybody in the P8TT family.

  • 154. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Richard: Small town called The Colony in the DFW Metroplex.

  • 155. Richard A. Walter (s  |  September 6, 2010 at 11:33 am

    I will keep you posted. Of course, I don't know yet if we will be in the car or the Land Barge. The little car is a deep sea blue metallic Suzuki SX4 Crossover, and the Land Barge is a fire engine red Dodge Ram 1500 SLT Quad Cab. We try to drive the Suzuki as much as possible because gas is so expensive. But I know just about where the Colony is, even though it has been 24 years since I was in the DFW area.

  • 156. Tony Douglass in Ca  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:53 am

    Welcome out of the lurking "closet", Furface, I've enjoyed the few posts you've made so far, so, as Bob said, let'm rip!

    I too fall into a few of those categories, hope you accept near misses into your one man group!!

  • 157. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:16 am

    Exclusivity has never held much appeal for me. Y'all more than welcome to join in and have a bit o' fun.

  • 158. Bob  |  September 6, 2010 at 6:58 am

    Furface, you got the gift of the gab, and a heart full of common sense, I needed to hear that, cheers Bob

  • 159. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:17 am

    I'm Irish and damn near fell on my punkin head kissin' the stone over ta Blarney Castle some years back.

  • 160. Bob  |  September 6, 2010 at 8:55 am

    huh, kissin the stone over ta Blarney Castle, what does that mean?

    you remind me of a male version of my lesbian friend, who I met when I lived up in the rocky mtns. here in Canada, we call her rawhide, lives in a log cabin way up in the woods, long drive to get there, and when you arrive she greets ya at the door with her long barrel rifle in her hand, just to show she may be way out in the woods but not alone, and ready to defend herself,
    she's a lumber jack, works with the best of logggers and no one ever gives her no trouble, I always felt like I was a foot taller in her company, and even the roughest guys would greet you real nice. spose it has to do a lot with that there ability to just be yourself that you're talking about,

    If she ever got any problems, like having to fix her jeep, or mend a roof, there was always somone there to help out and give a hand, I really admired that aspect of her just being herself, that demanded and recieved respect. Just kind of left me quievering in my boots sometimes,

    how she never thought once about wether or not she belonged, hell she was a well respected character in that community.

    And then their was my native friend, same thing, cept no one spected him of being gay, cause he was always huntin and trappin, and takin rich folks from the states up to hunt long horn sheep, haning out with me and my partner, who were out shop owners in the small village way up there, gave him away, but he never thought twice about it, and said people could think what they want, but they didn;'t choose his friends, yup, he taught me lots about friendship, and the meaning of the word, and I got to see a lot of the backwoods, with him too.

    There is nothing quiet like going out in a fresh snow to check the trapline, we used skunk oil to disquise ourselves, but that stuff never wore off, everyone always new I'd been out in the woods with him. Those were the friendship that made me proud.

  • 161. Furface  |  September 6, 2010 at 10:58 am

    Bob: The Irish have a reputation for being silver tongued devils and story tellers. Just outside Cork is Blarney Castle. In one of the battlements is a stone called the Stone of Eloquence. Legend has it that if ya kiss the stone you'll be blessed with said gift.

    To kiss the stone ya have to lie on your back and bend backwards through a hole to kiss the underside of the stone. It's about 80' to the rocks below at the base of the wall. Not for the faint of heart.

    Your friends sound like folks I enjoy sharin' a cup o' coffee with. Seems to me you pick your friends well.

    Livin' out is the best revenge.

  • 162. Bob  |  September 6, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    okay, just a quick response, you long timers will be glad to here that from me, first of all Furface, I'd love to linger, your appearance here today, brings up very important memories and stories, truths to be told, hope you come back, cause some of usneed thes kind of stories to ofset the crap we so often find ourselves in, I do recall know my niece telling me about the Blarney Stone when she was in cork, I'm wondering if the fact that you fell on your punkin gave you that gift of gab along with the elogquence, your storytelling makes me want to lit the fire put on some cowboy coffee and set a spell.

    Rose, thanks so much for bursting on here the way you did today, as you can tell from my lack of eloquence in responding, I have yet to kiss the Blarney Stone, but that don't ever stop me from speaking what's on my mind, I guess most times like ol Furface says, rather than a good role model, I serve as a horrible example, but jeeze I'm hopin you come back and make yourself at home here, jeeeze it don't take much, it's a really acceping group, and feels more like home than home itself sometimes,

    speaking of which, the reason I gotta run, I have some actual live house guests, we're going to lite the stove and do some storytelling and I can assure you it won't be P8TT, so I'll have a real itch to get back here tomorrow.

  • 163. RJ  |  September 7, 2010 at 12:17 am

    In watching that last video, it seems they have forgotten what their own faith teaches and how they are told to pray.

    Rewinding 2000 years, the behavior, vitriol, and posture of their public prayer would appear much less Christian and much more pagan. Their own scriptures state that their god is found in silence, yet they scream?

    I also saw what appeared to be three to four young men in that crowd who seemed to be praying the gay away…

    I love irrelevant religious movements based on lies. I love the sound they make when they come crumbling down.

  • 164. Rhie  |  September 7, 2010 at 7:08 am

    Actually, most Pagans and Wiccans I know find prayer to be a very private activity, and do so in their own space. They go into a closet – the way Christians should.

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  • 167. Ann  |  September 8, 2010 at 12:17 am

    I am sorry you are making fun of those of us who speak in tongues. I support the cause but don't like the put down. It does not win you any allies.

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    Really? Could you please tell us more about speaking in tongues? I am really interested. I must confess that whenever I see someone supposedly speaking in tongues, it appears to me to be some sort of sham performance. Can you tell me more about your experiences, please?

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