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Those poor, bullied NOMmers

NOM Exposed Right-wing

by Rob Tisinai

Our opponents have gotten quite skilled at co-opting the language we use. Maggie Gallagher and NOM in particular excel at this, calling us hateful, intolerant bigots for daring to disagree — loudly — when they question our basic human worth.

Now this tactic seems to have trickled down to their followers.

On Tuesday, the Human Rights Campaign delivered a 150,000-signature petition to Boyd Packer, a Morman Elder. Here’s what it said:

Dear Elder Packer,

I’m appalled that you chose this moment to deliver a sermon saying same-sex attraction is unnatural and same-sex unions are immoral. You have risked further alienating LGBT youth and potentially contributing to suicides of even more vulnerable young people. You’ve told them that their very identities are “impure and unnatural” and you’ve incited the violence and bullying that often drives them to suicide by repeating lies disproven by both science and the experience of millions of Americans who know their LGBT neighbors and care about them.

I hope you will cease putting young people in real peril and acknowledge the scientific truth: sexual orientation cannot be changed, nor should it be.

You know what NOM supporters are calling this?


I kid you not. Here are a couple comments from NOM’s Facebook page.

And I thought homosexuals were “anti-bullying”. I guess not. Just goes to show how stuck on stupid they really are.

Bullying is a two way street……when gays and lesbians bully others to change their thinking it is still bullying.

Yeah, bullying. The strategy here is obvious — and dangerous. Bullying has led to well-publicized gay suicides, wrenching any normal human heart and making decent people wary of our opponents’ casual, horrific, anti-gay propaganda. Our opponents can’t surrender that propaganda, though, so their only option is to trivialize the concept of bullying itself. It works like this:

  • A petition is bullying.
  • Expressing disagreement is bullying.
  • Petitions and disagreement are American traditions.
  • Bullying is an democratic tradition, an American tradition, an American ideal.
  • Opposition to bullying is bullying!

Think that’s ridiculous? That’s not the path they’re on? Think again. Our opponents are already pushing the meme that opposition to intolerance is intolerant. That opposition to anti-gay bigotry is anti-religious bigotry.

In fact, we see another of these Orwellian turn-arounds in that same comments section. NOM supporters believe that the act of delivering a petition is an assault on their liberties.Β  Here’s a sampling of their comments:

Whata!? I’m not a Mormon, but this is outrageous. This could set a terrible precedent on religious freedom.

How dare the HRC think they have the right to change the faith of an entire religion??! Joe Solmonese is Satan’s Lil helper! This is a perfect example of the evilness in this world. Evil is being shown as righteousness and righteousness is being called evil! SO SICK AND SAD!!!! Stay bold and pray for discernment!

It just goes to show that the activists will not simply be happy with legalization os SSM. They will continue until the government forces all churches to accept and include their lifestyle in each religion’s belief system. This is why the fight is so important.

Are we not living in America anymore? Cause last I heard America had FREEDOM of SPEECH meaning that we could say what we want and not have to re-tract what we said. So why must Elder Boyd K. Packer re-tract what he spoke? Did America all ready leave the earth and I missed the memo??

That’s right folks. Exercising our freedom of speech violates the principle of freedom of speech. But even that commenter didn’t go to this extreme:

How astoundingly egotistical for anyone to walk up to someone ELSE’S religion (leaders) and demand that they change THEIR belief!!! (Because that person doesn’t like/doesn’t agree.) DUH!
Thats the most ridiculously laughable thing I ever heard.

Then again, on reflection, its not so far away from Islamic terrorists who demand you change to their way or thinking (believing) or they will kill you.

Signing a petition is not so far from becoming a terrorist. Given how many signature-collectors linger outside my local grocery, I wonder how this woman manages to buy her milk and bread.

To be fair, NOM’s leadership didn’t write these comments. Their own official statement is pretty strange, though:

It’s kind of an extraordinary moment. LDS Elder Boyd Packer reiterated the Mormon church’s long-held view that sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is wrong. HRC President Joe Solmonese, perhaps egged on by Judge Walker’s ruling that religious beliefs hurt gays and lesbians, decided to attempt to change the LDS church’s religious doctrines, delivering a petition signed by 150,000 folks telling Elder Packer to change his faith’s tenets. This is weird, strange new territory. A signal of where the gay rights movement is headed?

Good Lord, this is unprecedented! If our ancestors had allowed people to question the religious beliefs of others, our nation might have ended up with a new faith forming in the early nineteenth century, and we might have later seen this religion struggle to reconcile its marriage doctrine with American law, eventually becoming a church fourteen million members strong — in large part by sending out missionaries to knock on the doors of nonbelievers and question their religious beliefs.

And NOM and LDS surely wouldn’t have wanted that to happen.


  • 1. Alan E.  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:18 am

    Does it warrant adding them to the list? So far it's still empty.

  • 2. Lesbians Love Boies  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:18 am


  • 3. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:05 am

    Fascinating site. You could spend HOURS there!

  • 4. Alan E.  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:07 am

    I'm a big fan of the chirping on repeat.

  • 5. Ben  |  October 14, 2010 at 8:56 am

    @Alan –
    I was just thinking that …

  • 6. JonT  |  October 14, 2010 at 10:14 am


  • 7. Chris in Lathrop  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:18 am

    I was thinking along those lines yesterday! Where are the dead hetero kids, indeed?

    OT – I've had that damned YRU Gay? song haunting me since I watched it yesterday. πŸ˜› I still feel queasy from that garbage. No word from MLB except the automated reply.

    {crickets chirping}

  • 8. Kathleen  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:21 am

    Advocate reports response from Yankees:

  • 9. Chris in Lathrop  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:37 am

    Thanks for the update, Kathleen! That it's taken them so long still makes me wary, but I hope they enforce this permanently.

  • 10. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 7:54 am

    Haunting…yes…. : ( (ps "Hi Chris")

  • 11. AndrewPDX  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:50 am

    Ooo… nice site, Alan!

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 12. Jonathan H  |  October 14, 2010 at 7:03 am

    ZOMG I got totally bullied by this guy who, get this, said that my scarf clashed with my shirt! He had a lisp, so he must have been gay. How long with I have to put up with this hateful, violent gay bullying? *sniff*

    Just to illustrate what a crazy world we live in, I hesitated to post this for fear that someone might take me seriously. Yeah.

  • 13. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 14, 2010 at 8:00 am

    It's not bullying if indeed your scarf clashed with your shirt…visual assault trumps a bully any day
    Watch how you dress next time!

  • 14. Jonathan H  |  October 14, 2010 at 8:29 am

    Bah! Orange scarf with purple shirt? I was stylin'! πŸ˜€

  • 15. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 8:31 am

    Dude, my eyes just broke out in blisters from the *thought* of that combo.

    It doesn't have to match, but it has to *go.*

    /Clinton Kelly


  • 16. Rhie  |  October 14, 2010 at 5:03 pm

    Oh I know you are kidding.

    This isn't a new strategy. I grew up being taught this very kind of twisted thinking. Fortunately for me, I had friends patient enough to untangle it with me and for me. It took two years to undo 20 years of propaganda. So, it CAN be done. People CAN be reasoned with. That's our only hope.

    I didn't see anything in that petition asking the pastor to not believe that. I saw them asking him to please consider how his words are heard by his followers and translated to action. That's a perfectly legitimate concern, especially now.

  • 17. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:59 am


  • 18. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 8:13 am

    Rhie – you comment hit home to me:

    "I grew up being taught this very kind of twisted thinking. Fortunately for me, I had friends patient enough to untangle it with me and for me. It took two years to undo 20 years of propaganda. So, it CAN be done."

    About 2 years ago I was in Park City UT a boutique with my hubby. He tried on a woman's scarf and I had a very critical reaction to the point we had to go outside to discuss. I was amazed and shaken by my immediate critical reaction to him putting on something that was for "women" Now "who the hell cares" if for men or women? I now have no such reservations.

    I'm glad I'm past the stage of my "undoing of propaganda" but my upbringing is strong and powerful and pops out at unpredictable times. I'm usually able to immediately recognize it when now "my Christianity is showing"and Laugh and forgive myself.

    I read your post about monogamy. I didn't feel one ounce of criticism of the topic or the things you said. To me that is progress. Hope you are well and living life to the fullest! Best of everything to you and the people you care for πŸ™‚

    p.s. did you see the movie "Short Bus"?

  • 19. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 8:24 am

    I mention Short Bus because it reminds me somehow how you describe your relationship(s). I found it to be a lovely movie…though would have freaked me out (probably) if I saw it 5 years ago.

    Monogamy is what me and my partner choose but I do not fear or care if someone else prefers multiple partners. How could that corrupt my marriage? I'm too busy celebrating and enjoying my own life to care to meddle or regulate what you or others do.

  • 20. Rhie  |  October 15, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    Gregory —

    Thank you! Yes, I still find myself having to fight knee-jerk reactions. A lot of the damage has been undone. But, there are still moments where I have to try to logically explain to my emotions that they are based on viewpoints I no longer hold.

    And, thank you for your kind words about my being poly. I have said I'm poly on other liberal boards before and been roundly mocked or attacked. So, it is always nice to hear a friendly response :).

  • 21. Rhie  |  October 15, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Oh and I haven't seen that, but I will see if Netflix has it and add it. That is the best service, by the way. Very convenient.

    Heh, exactly. I am very pleased to hear you are happy with your relationship! I am always glad to hear good news :). All loving relationships should be celebrated, I think.

  • 22. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 18, 2010 at 2:08 am

    Yes, Netflix is the bomb! and Shortbus is available. I should mention/warn, if you are bothered by nudity in movies should avoid.

  • 23. Alan E.  |  October 18, 2010 at 2:18 am

    I love Shortbus! It was totally not what I expected, but I was not turned away by it.

  • 24. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 18, 2010 at 2:27 am

    @ Alan : )

  • 25. Rhie  |  October 18, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    @ Gregory,

    You are so sweet to mention that! Many people don't think to mention potential issues with movies or shows.

    No, nudity doesn't bother me.

  • 26. Rhie  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    oh my.

  • 27. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:18 am

    Rob wrote: Opposition to bullying is bullying!

    Heh. My niece duly informed me recently that my failure to allow her brother to post hate speech on my FB page meant that I wasn't really pro-equality, because I was telling him what he could and could not say.

    Um, no, honey. I didn't say he couldn't spew his hate speech; I said he couldn't spew it *there.*

    It's the same kind of 1984-esque thing that makes those who are the real bullies try to claim some kind of victim status because they are no longer being allowed to get away with it.


  • 28. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:21 am

    Fiona, good for you for standing up against hate speech on your FB page. It's your page, and you get to say what goes on it. Anything posted there might reflect on you, after all.

  • 29. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:27 am

    Said nephew is a little jerkwad and always has been. His post was all about how "faggots and pussies" shouldn't be allowed to be in the service because "we're all kickass alpha male motherfuckers and heros and everyone respects us."

    Yeah, whatever. This is the same kid who has been saying since he was 12 that he couldn't wait until he was 18 when, "everyone will have to listen to me and respect what I say."

    I wonder how that's working out for him, LOL.

    He was in the Marines for two years before he was discharged under Section 8, FWIW (and seems to think he is still a Marine, FWIW).

    For those who don't know, Section 8 is a psychiatric discharge.

    Yes, he is a whackjob … and the truth is that he always has been. Now he is a whackjob who is proud of the fact that he killed Muslims. I called him out on his anti-Arab hate speech in my own dining room one day and was told "You're just a civilian; you don't know anything."

    Again, yeah, whatever. He's a civilian now too, whether he likes it or not .

    And the best part about all of this? I no longer feel obligated to pretend that I like the little asshole. πŸ™‚


  • 30. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:33 am

    Tell us how you really feel ; ) LOL! Love you ms. fioan64!

  • 31. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:42 am

    LOL, Section 8 is what Klinger on MASH was always trying to get by wearing dresses and carrying a purse.

  • 32. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:04 am

    ROFLOL, Gregory.

    I neglected to mention his opinion that women shouldn't be in the service, either, since "they just get themselves raped."



  • 33. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:07 am

    Well, I'm glad you have a dialogue going with the neice. Perhaps she's still salvageable?

  • 34. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:11 am

    Not entirely sure, to be honest.

    She has a Teabircher boyfriend, and she is all about "whatever he says, goes." (Just to give you an idea … he's the captain of their university rugby team and got a concussion. To test him, she called him several times a day from an event where she was allegedly working to help my SIL. She would ask him to recite the Fox News lineup in order, "Because we know it by heart." She has suddenly also decided that she is a conservative Christian, a group for which she has previously expressed nothing but disdain, becaus ehe is one.) She's never had a serious boyfriend before, and has decided to sacrifice her integrity on the altar of popularity.

    Sad but true. My SIL is appalled, but also knows that if she says much of anything about it, her daughter will go off and marry the twit or something. One of our family friends summed it up best when she said "I expected better out of Janis than that."

    She's decided not to speak to me until I apologize to James (her words) … so I guess I won't be hearing from her until approximately the end of time.

    Fiona (who is not particularly upset by any of this, to tell the truth …)

  • 35. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:36 am

    Well, I guess we should just thank our lucky stars (and whatever gumption you had) that you got out of that circle! Eeek.

    My neice has already been diagnosed at age 5 with a predisposition for alcoholism. My sister is like, "Uggh…I KNEW there would be a payback for my own terrible teens!"

  • 36. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:39 am

    Wait — sorry, OT, but how do you diagnose a 5-yo with a predisposition to alcoholism? Is there a gene or enzyme or something?

  • 37. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:40 am

    And there's a good reason I am interested — there is a certain amount of alcoholism in my family, including a half-sister.

  • 38. Rebecca  |  October 14, 2010 at 5:28 am

    I think predisposition to alcohol can be suggested simply by having an adult family member with the problem. All the research I've seen has said there is a genetic cause for alcoholism.

  • 39. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:22 am

    Okay…this is the story on my (darling) neice:

    She was completely unlike her brother from infancy on. He was complacent, while she had a deep deep need to be held with COMPLETELY UNDIVIDED ATTENTION for the first year of her life…which is rather odd. If my sister was holding her or nursing her and answered the phone or picked up a hairbrush, (ie, did the littlest thing), my neice became freaked out and cried.

    I nicknamed her "Stormy" when she was tiny, and was put on "Storm Watch" to see if she was becoming distressed…as it took so long to calm her down afterwards. (This was all pre-verbal-stage.) My sister has had to see doctors about her back, because my neice needed to be carried so much. She then grew into having meltdown screaming fits (my neice, not my sister!) when feeling vulnerable or uncertain or under pressure. She wasn't coddled or spoiled, she just seemed to have really DRAMATIC reactions to feeling insecure. Like, howling vocal, crying reactions. My sister and brother-in-law (wryly) call her Sybil behind her back, because she would have a fit, then come skipping into their room and pounce on the bed like nothing had happened. Luckily, she has outgrown this pretty much, and is now in a program for highly gifted students in a good school.

    The "diagnosis" came about when my concerned sister went to see some child psychologists to see if she could help my neice in some way with these violent moodswings and extreme reactions to feeling vulnerable. One of them said, "Ummmm, let me ask you, is there any history of alcoholism in your family?" My sister went white, because both sides of the family (you could really say 4 sides, if you counted all sets of grandparents) are riddled with alcoholics. When my sister said Yes, the psychologist said, "Well, I just want to tell you that you might want to be very aware as your daughter's going through adolescence, because the type of personality you're describing can REALLY latch onto drugs and alcohol at that age, as a way to cope with their feelings, and if you're saying her family tree has multiple alcoholics in it…."

    As one of the relatives that's alcoholic (though sober 19 years) it did make me think how DELIGHTED I was to feel relaxed for once when I had my first glass of wine. Being smart and knowing how to make things happen, I then proceded to keep my dresser stocked with Southern Comfort throughout middle school and junior high. So I kind of get where the psychologist was going with that.

  • 40. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:35 am

    Cookie, thank you so much for sharing your story. Congratulations on being sober 19 years! That is huge.

    Your niece's story is very interesting to me. The half-sister who is alcoholic also has a lot of dramatic mood swings. I don't know when she started drinking, but the DUIs began in college and haven't really stopped. Right now her license is restricted so that she can only drive to work and to buy groceries. She actually has a friend whose father is a retired family chauffeur (think "Driving Miss Daisy") and he is helping her to get other places. It's a clever solution, but I can't help feeling that she doesn't get it that she has a problem, and we all know she still drinks, and to excess.

    She has alienated her brother and sister and gotten herself banned from visiting the family home for nearly a year after breaking the "no alcohol" rule they had imposed because of her, in a rather dramatic way. But I guess they have all agreed to gather for Thanksgiving, and I hope it goes well.

    Sigh. We have warned our daughter that there is something of a family predisposition to alcoholism, and she says she plans to never drink, but she's only 16 and I don't know if she could or should really do that indefinitely. We've tried to talk to her about the difference between having a beer at a college party or a glass of wine with dinner and drinking until you black out, but only time will tell.

    Thank you again. Hugs to you.

  • 41. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 7:02 am

    Thanks for your good wishes and hugs : )

    One thing I've heard over the years is that while there are all different types of alcoholics and circumstances, a great many of them had FREAKED OUT childhoods/teen years and grabbed drinks with both hands when it was first offered to them. It's an attempt at self-medication, when you find something that calms the voices and smoothes out the ragged feelings. And it can actually work for a while…till you crash and burn.

    I heard someone say, "Alcohol gave me wings to fly, then it took away the sky." Rather poetic. (Is that a self-help poster, somewhere?)

  • 42. Anonygrl  |  October 14, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    It is very true that alcoholism is sometimes an attempt to self-medicate where chemical imbalances would be better served by actual medication. Often the alcoholic doesn't even realize that this is what they are doing, which makes it even harder to get help.

    Good for you, Cookie, for 19 years!

  • 43. Rhie  |  October 14, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    Cookie –

    Thank you for sharing your story. It gives me hope for my family. I have an uncle who died from, well, drinking himself to death. I am scared others in the family will go the same way.

    In my family I think it is a history of chemically induced Depression that people are trying to self-medicate with alcohol and coffee. There are lots of reasons why I think this that I don't want to go into here. Just suffice to say, I'm was diagnosed with with Depression and PTSD and have the exact same symptoms as a close family member who drinks a lot.

  • 44. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:18 am

    Thank you for sharing your very personal stories πŸ™‚

    Briefly, while in the Mormon Church and trying to live a straight life I struggled with alcohol. After I left the Mormon church (who told me I was forbidden to drink if I want to go to temple) and after meeting my hubby my "need" for alcohol disappeared…. Magic! Sober 3+ years. Congratulations to all those who survived alcoholism! My brother is struggling with this and is very very sad and difficult to know how to help.

  • 45. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:19 am

    His hate speech on YOUR FB page amounts to a form of vandalism of YOUR private property. He still has a right to say whatever the F he wants, just not on YOUR private property

  • 46. Chris in Lathrop  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:21 am

    Good for you, Fiona! He sounds like most every Marine I've ever encountered. I guess the good ones are more of the silent type, huh? And good for you standing up to your niece, too!

  • 47. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:19 am


  • 48. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:26 am

    type…delete…fume…type….TYPE! TYPE!!! delete, delete…*Giant Sigh* subscribing….

  • 49. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:20 am

    Some idiot on FB wrote: Are we not living in America anymore? Cause last I heard America had FREEDOM of SPEECH meaning that we could say what we want and not have to re-tract what we said. So why must Elder Boyd K. Packer re-tract what he spoke? Did America all ready leave the earth and I missed the memo??

    Freedom of speech (for those who did apparently miss the memo) means that the government will not haul you away for speaking your piece. It doesn't mean you are guaranteed a) an audience, b) adulation, c) approval.

    Fiona (who is beginning to be very concerned about homeschooling's growth in this country …)

  • 50. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:22 am

    There is definitely rampant ignorance of basic civics in this country.

  • 51. Lesbians Love Boies  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:25 am

    Amen fiona!

  • 52. Trish  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:40 am

    Why are you suppressing my freedom of speech to say that freedom of speech means that I have the right to say whatever I want without question? You're infringing on my freedom of speech by speaking in response! /sarcasm

  • 53. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:10 am

    My boss gave me the vague message that "a woman" had called for me twice before I arrived. I am going to march into his office, interrupt his meeting and tell him JUST what I think of his secretarial "skills". I'm sure he cannot fire me for this, as it's all FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

  • 54. Rhie  |  October 14, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    I'm concerned about all schooling in this country, to be honest. My professor friend is getting more and more students who have been through the public school system and don't know even the basics of science. He is starting to have to explain what the Scientific Method is to college students. Who have never heard of it before.

  • 55. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  October 15, 2010 at 12:57 am

    But, Fiona, if we home school then we can teach our children what we want them to know (whether it matches reality or not). As I said in another post, when I hear that people home school because they are concerned about what their children will be exposed at school, I immediately think that they don't want their children learning tolerance of others who are different for whatever reason.

    Sheryl, Mormon Mother (who is looking forward to meeting all who can make the gathering tonight)

  • 56. Anonygrl  |  October 15, 2010 at 1:39 am

    You guys have fun tonight! I wish I lived on your coast so I could join you. Send us pics!!

  • 57. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:04 am

    Good morning everyone πŸ™‚

    My 2-cents on home schooling. 4 kids, 1 home school, 3 public school.

    My oldest daughter came home from sixth grade and announced "I'm not going to jr. high, I'm going to start doing school at home." She got the idea from kids she took violin lessons with…these are musicians who practice 3-5 hrs/day while still quite young. Bewildered but open to learn, started to investigate….

    This is a child that dreaded every single day going to school, crying, pleading to stay home….I battled with teachers not accepting her learning style, her wonderful creativity and originality, both my ex wife and I volunteered in the classroom often. Changed schools three times because a teacher or principle did not deserve to learn from our fabulous child.

    We let her choose curriculum and follow what ideas excited and stimulated her after "structured curriculum" at home was not successful. At one point she was fascinated with Star Wars…a while later spent 6 months researching etiquette of dining and hospitality, got interested in knitting from an 80 year old neighbor she developed a friendship with, started hanging out with 20-40 year old "progressive" woman in a "stitch-n-bitch" club. At the time she was intrigued by dragons and spent 1 year creating a shawl with a breathtaking dragon pattern(talk about math!) She studied photography and literally covered her entire bedroom wall with 4X6 photos she took. There was the Beatles phase, then origami and one prizes in the fair for her art (pencil and color pencil drawings),. She went on to learn sign language and interpreted for the deaf, in college got an "A" in chemistry without any formal math studies after 6th grade, a concert violinist who has traveled all over Europe performing. Now she has a baby, married to a super nice guy, manager of restaurant and one of the most beautiful FABULOUS persons I know. I may mentioned she is has Celiac disease (gluten-free living) which she discovered after having chronic stomach aches and other health issues. 17 years of doctors were perplexed but she used her study/research abilities to figure out what was going on with her health and her life improved instantly!

    Our 2nd daughter tried to follow her sister in home school and she hated it! She was miserable. Her home school phase last about 3 months. Once back in public school she thrived! Straight A's, all the awards, performances, accolades friends you can imagine. The other two kids love there public school teachers and friends (one elementary, one jr. high and they LOVE it…but none of them have the same ability to learn new subjects quite as well as the home schooled daughter.

    Home schooling was blessing for our child whose learning style did not fit the public school system ways.

    The National Spelling Bee often is won by a home-schooled student. It was great to networked with other homeschooling families for day activities, some cultural, some just for fun.

    Just like homophobia, there are many stereotypes and ignorance about home school. I found most home-school parents love their kids, support, validate and cheer them on. True, some don't want to "expose" them to public school "corruption" but I have the idea the the effect of home schooling a child is they learn to think and act for themselves.

    Guess the "common sense" comments on this thread and other times about home schooling touched a nerve with me! LOL! Love and Light to ALL! Gregory

  • 58. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:07 am

    p.s. I was not one of the those "spelling bee home school champions" πŸ˜‰

  • 59. fiona64  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:15 am

    Hi, Gregory. Thank you for your comments.

    I will tell you that it is my personal experience with homeschooling parents that they are in the category you cite: "We don't want our kid to know about certain things."

    The result is that many of those kids grow up to be adults don't know *vital* things, like how government actually works, that this is *not* a Christian nation, and a whole lot of other things we battle regularly. They grow up to be adults who are notoriously anti-science as well — because they've been taught to distrust scientific method (assuming that they know what it is).

    If more parents were like you and your ex, looking at what each individual child needs and what works for them, as opposed to "Heaven forfend our children be exposed to ::gasp:: ideas or ::doublegasp:: people different from themselves (as Sheryl points out), I would not have the concerns that I do.

    My *biggest* concern, though, is that not one of the homeschooling parents I know is a qualified teacher. Now, maybe you can argue that such is okay, but I know I wouldn't want to have to teach a kid algebra — because (I swear to you), it was *yesterday* that I had a breakthrough about something that I studied in high school 30 years ago and suddenly "got it." I had dyscalculia, that went undiagnosed until I was an adult. I could not explain algebra even with that "got it" moment to a kid if I were held at gunpoint. Yet, when I was a newspaper editor, I used it every single day that I laid out a newspaper (resizing photographs requires algebraic equations, albeit simple ones, and there are tools that help you do it). So, I can say that it is a necessary skill.

    So, what if we have someone teaching their kids that government is founded on the Bible, and that we're a direct democracy, and all of the other stupid stuff that we've all seen commented on in terms of Proposition 8 — stuff that is demonstrably false?

    That is why I tend to blame homeschooling — the outcomes that I see very day.

    So, all of that said, I appreciate your other perspective. I hated going to school, despite being one of the scholarly types who liked learning — because I was constantly bullied. However, I also learned a lot because I was exposed to other people and concepts that I would not have gotten from my right-winger parents (to their immense chagrin, I think …).


  • 60. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:40 am

    I love reading and learning from your comments Fiona (and cannot wait to read your book and book suggestions!) I appreciate your articulate answer. I'm grateful to have you and others take the time to read and evaluate my comments based on my thoughts and experiences. I have gone through such a metamorphosis these last three years I need feedback as I become resocialized

    Just like a tea party is developing, seems maybe there is a tea-party-home-school movement too. I tend to ignore the fringe element and "negative" aspects of every subject. I'm lucky to have a hubby Sociologist who views life through the critical perspective to help me with my blind spots. (big Clue, my favorite movies: "Pollyanna", "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" and "Shawshank Redemption"…….though as my critical perspective is developed my tastes are changing)

    I'm not in favor of this type of homeschooling which sounds like the kind you are describing:
    (about the most scary movie I've ever watched!)

    Summary: Home School can be a great tool for non-traditional learner, or kids who absolutely dread school….but I agree with you, if its being used as a tool to raise a bunch of NOMBIEs. I vote NO!

  • 61. Carpool Cookie  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:46 am


    "Now, maybe you can argue that such is okay, but I know I wouldn’t want to have to teach a kid algebra — because (I swear to you), it was *yesterday* that I had a breakthrough about something that I studied in high school 30 years ago and suddenly “got it.” "

    When I was last visiting my mom, she told me she was having to spend sooo much time balancing her checkbook because her subtration had got shakey. (She's 70 now, with poor eyesight.) I spent an hour going over "borrowing" with her. It was really fun, and we felt very close.

    But I'm very glad her question wasn't about algebra…or even reciprocating fractions….or how to approach negative numbers. (I still remember the zero doesn't count for anything, a least…as it represents "nothing".)

  • 62. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:57 am

    I celebrate what you said:

    "learned a lot because I was exposed to other people and concepts…."

    I do love the fact that my 13 year old has many non-Mormon friends and because of that she gravitates to Asian philosophies, amine, art and Music. She has 2 female teachers with extravagant personalities who celebrate her and her creativity. I absolutely love my 4th grade son's teachers. All these woman have earned my highest respect.

  • 63. Alan E.  |  October 15, 2010 at 2:59 am

    Scariest part about Jesus Camp:

    When the kids and adults were chanting "This is war! This is war!"

  • 64. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 3:35 am

    @ Alan – oooooooOOOOOOO that is a SCARY Part -shiver!- Perfect Halloween movie!

  • 65. fiona64  |  October 15, 2010 at 3:38 am

    Oh, gawd! "Jesus Camp" is one of the most terrifying things I have ever seen. That angelic-looking toddler, in his little coat and tie, spewing hate speech about people going to Hell because he's saved and they're not, while his parents look on in pride?



  • 66. Rhie  |  October 15, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    I would to, except I grew up outside of Baltimore, MD. All the local schools were known by unsettling nicknames referring to the most common type of crime – rape, crack, murder, etc. When parents were concerned about what their kids were exposed to, they meant guns, knives, and severe harassment and battery on a daily basis. I would say those are legitimate concerns. Oh, and this was a GOOD school district.

    I don't want any kids I may have to go to a public school because of the absolutely ridiculous laws and because they won't learn anything useful. Fortunately, the local district here has all sorts of alternatives, including partial school days, online high school, and help for home schoolers from the district, as well as a state-approved curriculum.

  • 67. Rhie  |  October 15, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    Fiona —

    I have met some of those too. I have also met some of the parents like Gregory. I have discovered it comes down to the family and people more than the school. Parents who want to keep their kids ignorant do so just as well with their kids in public school, largely thanks to the failed No Child Left Behind. It really should be named Every Child Left Behind.

    I have a biology professor friend who meets kids educated 12 years in public schools who wouldn't know the scientific method if it came up and introduced itself. He's had home schooled kids who aced the class because they studied it all before.

    What schooling is best very much depends on the kid, the family, the local schools, state resources, etc. Whether a kid will be ignorant or not depends on the values of the family far more than any school they go to or don't go to.

  • 68. Rhie  |  October 15, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Oh as a PS:

    I think the school my brother went to incorporated a lot of the best of homeschooling and public schooling. It was an accredited school, which meant brother didn't have to take a GED test or anything. It met two days a week, for classes such as algebra or Latin, that all parents wouldn't necessarily be able to teach.

    The other three days they were given homework and guided self-study that was discussed and graded during the school days. He had teachers he could ask for help, and time to work on subjects in his own way.

    Since it was technically a tutoring course, he could get credit for things like his store (business and math), and political activities (civics and social studies).

    I wish my parents knew of such a school when I was a kid. Most of what I know now that is of any interest or use I either learned outside of school or after I graduated.

  • 69. Sagesse  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:31 am

    Not news, unfortunately. They have always said that anyone who disagrees with/objects to their published disrespect of others is interfering with their religious freedom/ freedom of speech.

  • 70. Polydactyl  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:33 am

    Wow. Pointing out that your words are harmful and asking you to stop is now bullying.

    Urge… to invoke Nazis… rising! WWII comparison… too… strong!

  • 71. Straight Ally #3008  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:46 am

    No! Don't Godwin! Get a hold of yourself!


  • 72. Rhie  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    A Godwin is an inappropriate comparison to Nazis. Comparing tactics between the Right and the Reich is perfectly valid. Therefore, not Godwin. πŸ™‚

  • 73. Elizabeth Oakes  |  October 14, 2010 at 8:39 am

    I think a comparison to Brown Shirts would be allowable under the circumstances, however.

  • 74. fiona64  |  October 15, 2010 at 3:41 am

    Shades of Brecht's "Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny" …


  • 75. aaron in san fran  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:33 am

    the hate speech of these NOM bastards and others like them are why i don't go to church anymore.

  • 76. Trish  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:39 am

    So, the response to people who are bullied is to tell them to stand up for themselves, but as soon as they stand up for themselves they're called bullies?


    Yeah. That makes total sense.

  • 77. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:13 am

    The classic double-bind argument (well-known in LDS circles, BTW … my parents try it on me every now and again). E.g., let's say you are ill. If you got better, it's because you prayed (whether or not you did). If you didn't get better, even though you prayed, it's because your faith wasn't strong enough.

  • 78. Phia Westfall  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:35 am

    Wow, fiona64! Thanks for the link and the info. My parents/church leaders/religious authority figures tried that more than "every now and again" growing up, and it's amazing to better understand the concept involved.

    It feeds right back into the "cycle of guilt" that Linda Liles posted about back at the beginning of September, here on P8TT:

    Bound by guilt — and we all know how bad that feeling is — then double-bound by the command to welcome the guilt as a good thing, not only good but essential, even critical to keep living! That's not even taking into account the promise of "Eternal Life."

    I've often expressed their message like this: Take all the things that might make you feel good, anything you might enjoy doing, or seeing, or reading, or people you might have fun spending time with, activities and friends that make you happy… and stay away from them. Remember that those feelings aren't really good, they're just temporary imitations of true good, true happiness, and true joy. Keep yourself away from all of those imitations, the "cheap fakes" from the devil and his followers who only want to steal your heart and mind and soul with empty promises of happiness they can never make good on.

    Now, as long as you deny yourself any of those things — those are sins! Remember, and remember well! — you will be happy, you will have peace and beauty and joy in your life, the only true happiness, true peace, true beauty, and true joy. If you aren't feeling happy, the problem must be that you aren't really following all of the rules you've been given, the rules which will make you happy, the only rules that will make you happy.

    Oh, and did we mention that you won't necessarily have that happiness, joy, and peace while you're alive? Sometimes you have to wait, be patient, and remember — always remember! — that denying yourself the temporary, counterfeit happiness and following the very clear set of rules you have been given will make you wonderfully happy forever… if not in this life of sorrows, then certainly after you die. Keep yourself miserable now, feel guilty for enjoying the things that seem enjoyable now, and you'll be happy forever.

    Be unhappy now, or you never will be happy.

  • 79. Phia Westfall  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:37 am

    Erm, sorry 'bout the unclosed link… it still works though!

  • 80. Phia Westfall  |  October 14, 2010 at 7:15 am

    Just clarifying, those words are my own — tried to link to Linda's post and include the title, ended up making my whole post the text of the link instead.

    Trying again: The vicious cycle of guilt: A post-mortem on TheCall

  • 81. Rhie  |  October 14, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    Oh now you are reminding me of the argument that caused me call kinds of self-deprecating complexes I am just now starting to get over:

    If I do something right, it's the Holy Spirit guiding me and fighting my sinful nature.

    If I do something wrong, it's totally on me and my sinful nature.

    No wonder I had low self-esteem and confidence growing up. I was always told I was an awful person and could never do good on my own.

  • 82. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 6:03 am

    aka "Circular Thinking" ?

  • 83. Eddie  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:48 am

    I have been reading the comments on NOM's FB page – SICK SICK and ignorant and bullying. May they all rot, since not a one of them has any self-control, decorum, or basic understanding of human history.

  • 84. Kathleen  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:48 am

  • 85. Straight Ally #3008  |  October 14, 2010 at 3:49 am

    Man, it's not easy being straight and white in America. It's just constant, backbreaking oppression and bullying wherever you turn.

  • 86. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:15 am

    It's apparently especially hard to be straight, white, male and one of the mucky-mucks of the church of LDS. Why, the oppression of people constantly doing just what you demand, without any apparent critical thought on their part? It must be horrific …

    Poor Elder Packer.

    @@ (Those are my eyes, rolling like dice in a back-alley crap game …)

  • 87. Lesbians Love Boies  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:03 am


    State-Paid Preaching Prohibited: Court Says No To Counselor Who Was Addicted To Proselytizing

    …The agency offers help to people who are grappling with addiction problems and mental-health concerns. Among the options offered is a familiar “12-step” program that relies on a “higher power,” but that wasn’t enough for Moore. She wanted to offer specifically Christian counseling.

    Moore’s supervisors told her to stop. She decided to resign instead, filing a lawsuit that claimed her civil rights had been violated.

    The court didn’t buy it. U.S. District Judge Sarah S. Vance of the Eastern District of Louisiana rejected Moore’s case, holding that the state had the right to curb Moore’s proselytizing to avoid church-state problems.

    Moore claimed she was told not to even mention God to her clients. The court ruled that the evidence didn’t support this claim.

    Observed Vance, “Metropolitan did not generally restrict Moore’s religious speech and activities in the workplace. By imposing restrictions only on Moore’s faith-based treatment of clients, Metropolitan avoided the undue hardship of a potential [church-state] violation. Moore has provided no evidence that Metropolitan limited her religious speech or activities in any other context.”

    In other words, the court said Moore had no right to use her time at a government-paid job to preach to clients. That was exactly the right call.


  • 88. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:13 am

    "Addicted To Proselytizing"

    What a title! When's the book coming out??

  • 89. Alan E.  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:08 am

    This is bullying:

    <a> NEW YORK: Three Long Island Teens Arrested For Gay-Bashing 14 Year-Old

  • 90. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:15 am

    Is the link working? I am only on my first jup of coffee, so it could be me….

  • 91. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:16 am

    I haven't had a jup of coffee either, so that can't be it. ;->

    Link is not working, Alan.

  • 92. Alan E.  |  October 14, 2010 at 11:18 am

  • 93. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:18 am

    He's an f-ing BULLY!

  • 94. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:19 am

    I mean Alan and his "link, of course.

    Though maybe the site mods are BULLYING me by putting my messages in the wrong que???

  • 95. NetAmigo  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:38 am

    The real audience discussing who is intolerant and who is not consists of moderates and those outside the movement. I went onto their Facebook site set up to support Packard and made several polite but thoughtful comments. They immediately filtered me out so I could not comment and then erased my comments. I went onto my local newspaper's website and made similar comments under a news article about their Facebook page. Here they could not filter me out. The only ones whose comments disappeared were some of their supporters whose comments and attacks were so virulent my local paper would not let them stay on the site. Let's face it. The leaders of such groups are religious fanatics who will never be persuaded by any arguments.

  • 96. Judy  |  October 14, 2010 at 4:47 am

    The Freedom From Religion Foundation put up separation of church/state in Michigan. See the signs at

    Signs say such things as "In Reason We Trust", JFK quote "I believe in an American where separation of church and state is absolute", "Imagine No Religion", etc.

    Good site:

  • 97. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:26 am

    I want the Kennedy one to use as a wall mural!!!!!!

  • 98. AndrewPDX  |  October 14, 2010 at 7:18 am

    That would be awesome!

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

  • 99. Lightning Baltimore  |  October 14, 2010 at 5:54 am

    You people are obviously misreading the US Constitution!

    A very brief refresher:

    Amendement I

    Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a non-Christian religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of Christianity thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech of Christians, or of the Christian press; or the right of Christians peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  • 100. Chris in Lathrop  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:28 am

    It's so much like all the people who believe their employer can't restrict their speech. I know I could get fired for my sailor's tongue if someone really wanted to press the matter. This is what happens when students are forced to study for the standardized test rather than for the knowledge in the textbook–people who don't know, and really don't care how it works.

  • 101. Kathleen  |  October 14, 2010 at 5:59 am

    Justice Dept. just filed emergency stay motion. I'm getting document and will post link. Will take a few minutes.

  • 102. Lightning Baltimore  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:02 am

    Emergency stay against . . . ?

  • 103. Kathleen  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:09 am

    LCR v. USA – Application by Justice Department for emergency stay of injunction against enforcing DADT

    Sorry about not being clear in my earlier post.

  • 104. Lightning Baltimore  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:10 am

    That's what I thought it'd be, but there's so much going on these days!


  • 105. Kathleen  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:14 am

    I was so focused on watching for this filing that I just forgot about larger context. πŸ™‚

  • 106. Cassie  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:03 am

    And this, my friends, is why I was suicidal and cut my wrists all the time when I was starting to come out to myself. Because it was sh*t like this that I was hearing every freaking Sunday. Every mutual (youth group) activity. Every second of every day from my parents. This is why Stuart Matis killed himself on the steps of a Mormon church. He was told these kind of things his whole life and couldn't take the fact that he was "so immoral and disgusting" any longer, so he shot himself in the head with a piece of paper pinned to his chest saying "Do Not Resuscitate."

    Here's the actual talk by Boyd K. Packer…,5232,23-

  • 107. Kathleen  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:10 am

    It's disgusting.

    And I'm so glad you're still here with us, Cassie. Big HUGS!!

  • 108. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 5:17 am

    Cassie!!!!! Its you! so Great to hear from you!!!!! Love Gregory

  • 109. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:24 am

    HUGE HUGS Cassie!!!!!

  • 110. Anonygrl  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:36 am

    I am so glad that you failed, Cassie, and that you, and so many others here, are still with us today. OUR lives are richer for it, and we love you all!

    Let me offer this toast…

    Here is hoping that as many kids can be reached as possible before they get to the stage of hopelessness, and hoping that the rest find the guns misfire, the knives are dull, the ropes break, the mailman arrives in the nick of time, whatever it takes to keep them around to enrich the lives of all those who WILL love them in the future, and who do love them now, even if those kids don't yet know it.

  • 111. Ann S.  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:40 am

    Cassie, I'm so sorry you were suicidal and were cutting. Hugs to you. I'm so glad you're here.

  • 112. fiona64  |  October 14, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Cassie, would you please do me a favor? There is a pro-equality site, Would you go ever there and tell your story? You can post anonymously. The moderator is an awesome lady who is putting her ecclesiastical standing on the line to bark back at the church's policies because she was friends with Stuart and feels that the church is definitely at fault for his death.

    The board, after Packer's talk, has been invaded by Evergreeners and Mormon apologists … and, of course, our "I'm gay, but not really since I married a woman" mealy-mouthed troll, Joshua, who has been "called" to stand up against Laura's work.

    You are a needed and valuable voice. I think that the more people read stories of those who have actually been harmed by the church's actions, the better.

    Fiona (who is also glad you failed)

  • 113. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 5:28 am

    I didn't know about this website Fiona….I'll write as well *big sigh*

  • 114. fiona64  |  October 15, 2010 at 7:13 am

    Thank you, Gregory. Your voice is much needed there.

    Laura, who runs the board, knows she could be excommunicated tomorrow if her ward(? I always forget if the ward is the local congregation, or if that's the stake …) is re-drawn and she winds up with a different bishop. She is flat-out speaking against the General Authorities on a regular basis, and knows she is lucky to have a liberal bishop at this time in church history.


  • 115. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 19, 2010 at 1:51 am

    @ FIONA

    fyi – I sent email to [email protected]
    Thought to let you know….would have BC'd you but misplaced your email address. Love, Gregory

    Dear Moderator (Laura?),

    I was invited by the person below to comment at your website. I know Fiona by mutual participation in Prop8 Trial Tracker. Her amazing intellect, laser sharp insights and heart have taught me to pay attention to what she has to say.

    114. fiona64 | October 15, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Thank you, Gregory. Your voice is much needed there.

    I am an excommunicated Mormon. I wrote the Ensign article "Becoming Whole Again" 13 years ago anonymously but no longer agree with the things I believed to be true at that time. I have the interest and desire to give an updated version of that article and wonder if you would be interested in my perspective for your website. I have no animosity toward the LDS Church. I'm not a "bitter ex Mormon" but I also recognize there is no place for me in the Mormon church as a Gay Man.

    “Becoming Whole Again,” Ensign, Jan 1997, 27

    I posted this Blog article "My Fantastic Journey" a year ago, but it should give you an idea of my current perspectives:

    Love and Light to All –

    Gregory Enke
    Salt Lake City, Utah

  • 116. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 19, 2010 at 2:51 am

    @ Fiona….I posted this, but "stuck in moderation"….reposting w/out links…

    @ FIONA

    fyi – I sent email to [email protected]
    Thought to let you know….would have BC’d you but misplaced your email address. Love, Gregory

    Dear Moderator (Laura?),

    I was invited by the person below to comment at your website. I know Fiona by mutual participation in Prop8 Trial Tracker. Her amazing intellect, laser sharp insights and heart have taught me to pay attention to what she has to say.

    "114. fiona64 | October 15, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Thank you, Gregory. Your voice is much needed there"

    I am an excommunicated Mormon. I wrote the Ensign article “Becoming Whole Again” 13 years ago anonymously but no longer agree with the things I believed to be true at that time. I have the interest and desire to give an updated version of that article and wonder if you would be interested in my perspective for your website. I have no animosity toward the LDS Church. I’m not a “bitter ex Mormon” but I also recognize there is no place for me in the Mormon church as a Gay Man.

    “Becoming Whole Again,” Ensign, Jan 1997, 27

    I posted this Blog article “My Fantastic Journey” a year ago, but it should give you an idea of my current perspectives:
    gregenke dot blogspot dot com
    Love and Light to All –

    Gregory Enke
    Salt Lake City, Utah

  • 117. Anonygrl  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:23 am

    I REALLY want to say to them "So, you are feeling bullied? Any chance you're going to consider killing yourself over it?" and let them read that as they will.

    But I won't because what I will mean is "your objection is beyond ridiculous" and what they will take away is "you should kill yourself!!!" but what they will NOT get is that THIS IS WHAT BULLYING DOES TO KIDS.

    Kids don't understand the difference between what NOM and Packer consider in their twisted little minds to be "helpful concern about children's souls" and what comes across to the children as "you are damned for all eternity, so why aren't you killing yourself?" No matter HOW nicely NOM phrases it, they are telling children that they are evil, unworthy, less than…

    To quote Dan Savage on this issue, NOM, "Children are dying. FUCK YOUR FEELINGS!" You are feeling abused and bullied? Good! It's about damned time you got a taste of your own medicine. You want us not to bully you? Sure thing, just as soon as you stop, we will. Freedom of speech cuts both ways, as WE have always noted in saying that Fred Phelps and his kind DO have the right to say what they want. But guess what? SO DO WE. So you can call us evil, second class, unloveable, unloving, whatever… but know that we are not just going to sit here quietly while you do so. We've had enough and now we are finding our voices, and they are ONLY going to get louder and be stronger and continue to drown you out. Until you shut up about us. Then we will have no r eason to bother, and we will stop.

    We will not, however, despite all your claims to the contrary, attempt to legislate YOUR rights away. You continue to attempt to steal our methods, we wouldn't sully our hands by using yours.

    And by the way, let's quickly discuss "redefining." Not redefining marriage… because we don't want to do that. Let's discuss redefining "bully", as you are trying to do by making the bullied seem the agressors when they simply refuse to take it any more. Let's discuss redefining "victim" when you try to cast yourselves in that role because we won't let you abuse us any more.

    Let's discuss the biggie, redefining "intolerance."

    Because, please note this one Maggie, while it IS discrimination to treat different things differently (that is the very definition of discrimination,) it is NOT intolerant to speak up against intolerance.

  • 118. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:27 am

    Have I told you today how much I LOVE you??
    I LOVE YOU!!!!

  • 119. Anonygrl  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:30 am

    Thanks! I needed that. And I love you too!

  • 120. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:35 am


  • 121. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 3:43 am


  • 122. Carpool Cookie  |  October 14, 2010 at 6:37 am

    If I were a stressed gay youth, I'd be even more distressed by the President filing an appeal on the DADT ruling.

    It just makes the uphill climb/crawl-over-glass look so steep…and you might think, "Well, if our new 'liberal-crusader' President isn't even on our side…"

    I'm depressed about where this is headed…but am not offing myself. Even though I may LOOK to the casual observer like a young and sprightly teen (cough)

  • 123. Ben  |  October 14, 2010 at 9:11 am

    Oh, I thought Obama would actually do something. I was expecting both the DOMA and DADT affairs would be far less sleight-of-hand than they are. It feels like the Administration is talking out of both sides of its collective mouth.

    This is not to say I feel at all suicidal (it's absolutely beautiful in Montréal this time of year, and being out is a far more comfortable situation than it was in high school) but I am getting really pissed off.

  • 124. Paulie  |  October 14, 2010 at 7:04 am

    Well, I will give them one point of "victory". They're totally correct. It may in fact be ethical to oppose some ideas so strongly that the mere possession of them demands containment and/or execution.

    People who want to believe in an imaginary friend far into adulthood absolutely deserve to be ignored in any logical or meaningful public discussion. Further, should they wish to input their fantastical notions into the public debate, they should be belittled, bullied out, and shunned with extreme prejudice.

    What is so easy to forget, is when you claim to be able to have a belief without sufficient evidence in something, you can claim to have special knowledge to anything. And there's pragmatically no difference between believing if I can hijack a plane into the World Trade Center and be rewarded with a bevy of virgins … and believing that god kills fags or soldiers with ieds because of the "pro-gay" us policy. Or even for that matter, that we can wait and trust upon "Hir" because there is a just and mighty "g-d" who cares.

    To believe anyone of these is to allow for the conviction of all of them.

    Death to faith. Life to reason.

  • 125. Biff  |  October 14, 2010 at 7:15 am

    His name is Elder Packer…..come ON people, "packer"…..I can only imagine the teasing and bullying this man may have gone through.( and, YEAH, I went there)…..somebody had to. Maybe this has inspired a little bitterness, hhhmmm?

  • 126. Ericinsandiego  |  October 14, 2010 at 8:27 am

    I am a gay Chinese American man in my late 20's. When I was younger, I was never bullied for being gay—I was bullied for being Asian.

    And then when I turned 18 and my parents inadvertently found out that I'm gay, I was exiled from coming home for ~6 years…but I digress….

    I, along with other Asian Americans, were occasionally picked on for being different. It was hard growing up Asian…I was so deep in the closet, I can't even describe… and I can only imagine how difficult it would be to be picked on as a youngster for being gay.

    Amidst all this talk of bullying, I can't help but to think of what our family friend, Mrs. Lee, instructed her son to do to the kid who bullied him at school everyday for being Asian. Everyday, little "Harry" would come home from school, after having been bullied by some schoolyard douche-bag….hurt and insulted. After being informed of the situation, Mrs. Lee, in less than conventional Asian tradition, told little Harry to go to school the next day, and when said bully started up again, for Harry to jump and throw all of his body weight into a well-directed stomp onto the bully's foot. Harry did exactly that. The bully did not bully Harry again from then on.

    Moral of the story?

    It is time to stop playing passive defense time and time again. Let's stop waiting for bigots to descend on us, and instead, pro-actively set a precedence. To be honest, I'm tired of being reasonable and polite and considerate to others' ignorance, especially when we have ignorant hate-mongering idiots around like Paladino or Angle or Coulter. We need to start a "Beat-A-Bully" movement. Ignorants want to suggest that there's something to be afraid of? Let's give it to them a precedence to be afraid of: the don't mess with me precedence.

    Setting a precedence that anti-gay bullying officially unacceptable in schools is good, but not enough, especially when dealing with aggressive inbreeds. We need to go further….instill fear in people who may consider bullying someone— the fear that they may get the crap beaten out of them if they do. Network LGBT students around schools to support each other and form "anti-bullying gangs". Bullying needs to come with severe school punishments. It's time to stop talking about things and start taking action that will effect real change. I'm so sick and tired of all this bullsh*t.

  • 127. Biff  |  October 14, 2010 at 10:35 am

    Thank GOD you're Chinese-American, at least you had something to cling to. My own mother started calling me faggot when I was 12, I took her to Family Court when I was 15! and was emancipated….. We come from the "whitest" stock. But, that still doesn't explain her hatred for me…..I did everything I could, got good grades, mowed the lawn, even cleaned the gutters (on the 3rd floor no-less)……. I grew up in Wayzata MN, 124 ft from the Pillsbury Estate, later went to all boys Jesuit school…….every day was an extreme torment, I was called either jew or FAG multiple times on a daily basis…….AND this was a neighborhood where everyone was priveledged!
    Some of these kids insulted me while their own mothers were face down (due to martinis) on a golf green somewhere!… own mother was crippled with mental illness (now called Bi-POLAR)…….it was left to me to direct the yard crew and the pack of maids it took to run the house……….I'm glad to be rid of her- Supreme Court Judges in MN have just awarded ME her house when she passes, and man! it can't happen soon enough!

  • 128. Anonygrl  |  October 14, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Eric and Biff… two stories from COMPLETELY opposite directions, yet so many sad similarities.

    I am so sorry for all the crap, but so glad you are both here to tell the stories! Every one we hear makes us that much stronger.

  • 129. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 5:39 am

    DITTO!!!!! wow! powerful stories!

  • 130. Ronnie  |  October 14, 2010 at 9:29 am

    Rob….you ROCK!!!!!….<3…Ronnie

  • 131. Joe  |  October 14, 2010 at 9:32 am

    Seems like the petition wasn't trying to change the church's beliefs that homosexuality was immoral, but was trying to get them to stop calling gay people evil degenerates or whatever.

    Being one of those weird Christians that don't think being gay is sinful in any way,, I do wish the rest of my brothers in the faith would come around, but forcing it would be wrong. What isn't wrong is requiring that they stop the hate speech.

    It's okay in my mind to hate the sin, but people should be called out for hating the sinner.

  • 132. Joe  |  October 14, 2010 at 9:32 am

    Forgot to scribe

  • 133. Sheryl, Mormon Mothe  |  October 15, 2010 at 1:12 am

    While, I don't agree with Boyd K.'s personal beliefs, I do want to point out that his speech was at a religious service and if we want to keep religious beliefs out of govt. we also need to keep govt. out of religious beliefs. Of course, I find nothing wrong with the petition asking him to reconsider some of his comments and how harmful they may have been. But, we still have to remember that these remarks were made at a religious service in a building owned by that religion.

    Sheryl, Mormon Mother (Cassie, I need to talk with you about tonight)

  • 134. Anonygrl  |  October 15, 2010 at 1:34 am

    I agree with you Sheryl, but a petition from the HRC is NOT the government getting involved with the church. HRC is not a governmental agency, it is simply a group of people, and they are expressing their displeasure with what was said.

    The petition does not indicate that we are even SEEKING government intervention. It just says "We are appalled". We, individuals, coming together as a group to express disaproval for something we see as wrong. EXACTLY what the church is doing, turned around at them, and suddenly they see it as bullying. Yet they still do not see what THEY are doing as bullying, and to tell the truth, the group they bully are far more vulnerable.

  • 135. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 3:27 am

    @ Sheryl @ Anonygrl

    This may be a little out of topic of this discussion of seperation of government and church, reflecting upon the attitude of some Mormon church members.

    PFLAG Ogden Utah President Alison Black, an active Mormon said to me last week that "Pres. Packer is a Turd!" (and other things!) She is active in PFLAG because of her Gay Son's friend committed suicide due to the "bullying" by his well-intended dogmatic parents, church leaders and Mormon peer pressure. She is super vocal in all areas of her life to educate about the perils of rejecting behavior to these vulnerable kids.

    Huge Thank You to the Sheryls, SBA's of the world who do the same!

  • 136. fiona64  |  October 15, 2010 at 7:14 am

    And Sheryl, if I may add on — thank you for pointing out that these are Boyd Packer's personal beliefs and not "direct revelation from God," as some of the Saints are claiming.

    (Me? I think Packer's probably a big ol' closet case … who is really ticked off that he didn't win the "You're the next prophet" lotto …)


  • 137. Felyx  |  October 14, 2010 at 9:38 am

    I have finally come up with a rough draft of a P8TT amicus brief for the Prop8 case. Hey, if NOM can send their ridiculous stuff I figure I could do a lot better! But I need help with research, citations and proofreading of grammar and content. If anyone is interested, please email me at [email protected]. (This is an axillary account so I am not bothered by spam.) I will send you a copy and you can suggest alterations.


  • 138. Richard A. Walter (s  |  October 14, 2010 at 10:25 am

    You have got to be kidding me! The bullies want to call the victims of their bullying the bullies!?! What kind of fokakta momsers are they, anyway?

  • 139. Michael  |  October 14, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    So according to the shrill anti-gay pressure group NOM, if I try to use the ballot box and Big Government to impose my "religious beliefs" on you and to take away your freedom of speech, religious liberty and right to the pursuit of happiness, I'm a "Civil Rights Crusader, like Martin Luther King. But if you don't just lie there and take it and if you so much as even whisper that you don't like what I'm doing to you, then you are intimidating me, bullying me and attacking my Christianity.

  • 140. Alan E.  |  October 15, 2010 at 3:02 am

    Check out this article about 8 straight "suicides" supposedly caused by backlash about LGBT issues. I put suicides in quotes because the people listed aren't dead.

    These eight cases are all true except for one thing: The Christians who were bullied by gays and gay activists are all still alive. Not a single one has committed suicide. That is because they have centered their lives around Jesus Christ, rather than their sexual identity. And no amount of bullying can change my mind about that.

    <a href="

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  • 141. Lightning Baltimore  |  October 15, 2010 at 4:45 am


  • 142. JonT  |  October 15, 2010 at 4:52 am

    I don't even know what to make of that.

    At first I thought it was a joke. But then after actually reading the article, I began to think this guy was actually serious.

    If so, man. What an asshat, to borrow a term.

  • 143. Lightning Baltimore  |  October 15, 2010 at 5:22 am

    Oh, he's serious all right. Look at the list of regular contributors to the site.

    I am so sick of the canard that we base our lives around our sexual orientation, when it's folks like him who cannot see beyond it.

  • 144. Rhie  |  October 15, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    I know right?

    I have never met anyone as obsessed with sex as a Conservative Christian. Seriously.

  • 145. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 15, 2010 at 5:22 am

    WOW! I am beyond shocked and insulted.
    Thanks for posting that Alan. It's always good to know what 'they' are saying

  • 146. Gregory in Salt Lake  |  October 15, 2010 at 5:30 am

    tx for your review Mark so I DON"T have to read it!

  • 147. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 15, 2010 at 8:31 am

    Glad I could help πŸ™‚

  • 148. Paul Toscano  |  October 17, 2010 at 12:56 am

    The current anti-gay rhetoric and posture of the LDS Church are not based in scripture, but stem from personal, culture, and corporate distaste that is falsely given scriptural or revelatory status.

    The prohibition of Leviticus 18:22 is "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is abomination."

    But who is "thou" in this commandment? The text is obviously patriarchal because it assumes the "thou" to be male. The commandment makes no sense at all if the "Thou" is female, for it would read “Woman, though shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind. It is abomination.” A female “Thou” would render the commandment a prohibition on sex between women and men and an endorsement of lesbian sex. How could God be the author of such a problem text? Is it not more likely that it is a manifestation of cultural biases and concerns rather than a divine injunction?

    But even if the text were to be given the benefit of every doubt and accepted as a prohibition against homosexual sex, male and female, it must nevertheless be seen that this homosexual prohibition is part of a larger “holiness code” that also prohibits and punishes the wearing of blended fabrics, the growing of two crops in the same field, the boiling of meat in milk, etc. If those who claim their anti-gay attitude is rooted in scripture actually took the word of the Lord here seriously then there should be an equivalent outcry against gleaning the corners of fields and vineyards, paying unjustly small wages, honoring the rich over the poor, hating people, carrying grudges, wearing linen and wool, etc., all of which are equally prohibited by Leviticus.

    Many of the prohibitions of Leviticus are ignored by modern Mormons (and other religious people); but these should not be ignored if such people insist that the prohibition on homosexual sex is a revelation from God in this text. For there is nothing in that text to justify any picking and choosing among its prohibitions or to give priority to the denunciation of homosexuality over the denunciation of blended fabrics and modern farming methods.

    There is no denunciation of homosexuality among consenting adults in the New Testament. The only words close to such a condemnation are those of St. Paul Romans1:27-28, verses that when read in context serve only as examples of Paul's of "lust" that Paul condemns as the opposite of "love," which is the form God's saving grace takes in his disciples. “Lust” in the text of Romans does not refer to sexual arousal, but to covetousness which can take the form not only of concupiscence, but of greed, egotism, self-interest, narcissism, and power-grabbing–all of which are exemplified in the list of wrongs St. Paul provides at the end of Romans chapter 1.

    There is nothing in the LDS Church’s four standard works that condemns homosexual sex among consenting adults.

    Thus, there is no canonical scriptural basis for LDS Church’s anti-gay attitude.

    There is no scientific basis for the belief that homosexuality is a choice.

    There is no legal reason to believe homosexuality is immoral or criminal, unless the act involves force or fraud of some kind, which would equally apply to heterosexuality as well.

    LDS church leaders may believe and teach that homosexual feelings can be repressed or that homosexuals can choose to be heterosexuals because some of them have made these very choices.

    Homosexuals may now be scapegoated by the LDS Church because there are no more communist to scapegoat. It is sad to contemplate the LDS Church, like many other religions, needs a visible enemy to blame for the unsolvable problems of the current age.

    Perhaps the LDS Church’s obsessive aversion to homosexuality is not so much grounded in the revelations of its leaders as in its historic embarrassment about its own flirtation with alternate sexual models (polygyny and polyandry) that stained its moral reputation in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

    The problem with the anti-gay attitude of the LDS Church is that it is neither Christian nor Mormon at heart. Rather, it justifies the existence and continued exertion of the power and influence of corporate church on fearful people trapped in the moral flux of the post-modern world.

    Fortunately, LDS Church leaders have for years preached that the words of living church leaders supersede the words of dead ones. Thus, the anti-gay statements of President Boyd K. Packer will fade into oblivion after his demise just as did the anti-birth control statements of Joseph Fielding Smith, the anti-oral sex statements of Mark E. Peterson, and the anti-Catholic statements of Bruce R. McConkie. The LDS Church leaders have themselves instituted the very mechanism by which their own influence will be curtailed so that the LDS Church can continue to change with the times while insisting that it’s moral positions are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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